This week we’re discussing the evolution of the WordPress Post Editor and some interesting alternatives too.
Join us on this episode of WPwatercooler by visiting our Participant guidelines page.
Jason Tucker: [00:00:00] Hey, what’s up everyone. This is Jason Tucker, and this is episode
number 363 of WPwatercooler. WordPress Post Editor Evolution and Alternatives sponsored by ServerPress makers, DesktopServer. Check them out over at serverpress.com.
I’m Jason Tucker. You can find me over at Jason Tucker on Twitter. My website is Jason target up blog,
I’m Steve Zehngut with the founder of Zeek Interactive. I run the OC WordPress meetup.
I’m Sé Reed: [00:00:34] Sé Reed, I make WordPress, Teach WordPress and at Sé Reed Media on all the things
Russell Aaron: [00:00:39] My Name is Russell Aaron and I do things with WordPress in Las Vegas.
Jason Cosper: [00:00:43] It’s Jason Cosper AKA Fat Mullenweg
Jason Tucker: [00:00:49] Go Support us on on Patreon. Go to patreon.com/wpwatercooler to go check that out, we would really appreciate it.
the subscribe button, hit the little bell, check out the show notes down below.
I click on the things in the corners. There’s all sorts of stuff what’s going on. I was still professional now. Oh my gosh.
Check me out.
Sé Reed: [00:01:13] Steve looks at a professional
Jason Cosper: [00:01:15] Thank you everybody for coming to Steve’s Ted talk.
Sé Reed: [00:01:18] Yeah.
Steve Zehngut: [00:01:22] Steve Tell us a little about what’s going on over there.
I, I set up a, I set up an SLR, so
Jason Tucker: [00:01:30] good for you, man.
Sé Reed: [00:01:34] No, it’s not funny.
No, call me that.
Have you guys noticed? Yep.
Sé Reed: [00:02:22] No,
Steve Zehngut: [00:02:22] no,
Jason Cosper: [00:02:22] no.
Jason Tucker: [00:02:27] I’ll be in the middle. I have a full on blog post, and then this thing will just go like right as I’m like trying to drag in some new block or some new something, and then it breaks.
I was gonna say
it could be it’s your hosting it’s WP engine.
Jason Cosper: [00:02:42] Well, there you go.
I was going to say since, since you’re a little technical enough, if you’re running into these problems, it might be worthwhile to file a bug because that sounds super weird. Yeah. also seeing, if other people are running into the similar problem, I would suggest loading up like, like a private browsing window, trying to log into your site and seeing when now that extensions, most of your extensions are, are disabled.
Right? What that means.
Sé Reed: [00:03:16] Now we’re doing some Jason’s site troubleshooting. That was a quick morph.
Jason Tucker: [00:03:21] Great.
Steve Zehngut: [00:03:22] Yeah. I was going to ask a similar question. You’re not running any other plugins.
Jason Tucker: [00:03:26] Oh no. There’s all sorts of crap. That’s installed like all these different blocks. So I was like, Oh, anyway, I’m going to install code blocks.
Sé Reed: [00:03:51] to the normal users credit, or just to be realistic about a normal user, they don’t even know to go look for that stuff.
So they’re not necessarily going to go. Then
Jason Tucker: [00:04:02] we come to one of our meetups, they’re going to.
Sé Reed: [00:04:04] Yeah, but that’s not a normal user. That’s not an option.
Steve Zehngut: [00:04:10] I don’t know if I agree with that. I think
these are representative of normal
Sé Reed: [00:04:17] are defining normal user.
Steve Zehngut: [00:04:21] Is that, is that next week to meet up
Sé Reed: [00:04:25] all the users you can be?
no, that’s that’s next week topic. Tune in here. but I, I don’t know that, most people, I don’t, I hate,
Jason Tucker: [00:04:36] I got people in the chat room asking, telling me to do stuff that like, you should turn off all the plugins and you should use 2020. If I told you I was using 2020. How about that?
Steve Zehngut: [00:04:46] Yeah, I think again, I think if, if you’re, if you’re installing a bunch of block libraries, you have some sort of conflict that that’s what’s happening.
There’s some sort of conflict between two block libraries.
Sé Reed: [00:04:58] Block editor is a conflict as an actual literal conflict is what it is. It’s not, it’s not a metaphorical emotional conflict that you’re having. It is an actual literal conflict. But I do want to say that I don’t think that the. Average user, out of the box is going and installing a bunch of stuff because they don’t even know that it’s there.
So, you know, kind of what the w you see the different theories. If you’re installing a fresh install of WordPress, you’re never even going to know that there was another install, another interface. And if you’re installing a, if you’re converting, you’re just gonna. Honestly bitch about it, no matter what, because everyone does.
That’s just what happens with change note, every iteration of Facebook timeline and every change that happens on Instagram. And, you know,
Jason Tucker: [00:05:49] so, so what you’re saying is if you switched to it, then this is what happens,
Jason Cosper: [00:06:01] Absolutely. And speaking of speaking of change, and speaking of people, moving cheese, wordpress.com just announced that as of June 1st, everybody is losing access to the classic editor and being forced to move over to the block editor
Steve Zehngut: [00:06:20] June 1st of 2020.
Jason Cosper: [00:06:22] That’s correct.
Sé Reed: [00:06:24] I read that, Posts. And I was intrigued by the fact that they didn’t actually say in there.
How they were transitioning. Like I E are they forcing all of the new blocks to do it? Cause what they did say is that the classic editor will still be there and the classic block will still be there. But they said as of June 1st, we’ll be using this, but they’ve already been doing it on all new installs and they didn’t.
All of your old posts are going to automatically convert to the classic block or to the paragraph block. They included no information about the transition whatsoever. They were just like, we’re going to do this cause it’s been good for everybody. but they didn’t actually say what they’re doing
Jason Tucker: [00:07:05] list of all the blocks. that do work?
Jason Cosper: [00:07:08] From them and it’s, it’s been good for everybody except for the people who really want to stay on the classic editor. so I mean, what what’s gonna happen here? Are we gonna start steam? Come on. Say
Sé Reed: [00:07:22] Nope. Nope.
Jason Cosper: [00:07:25] Are we going to start seeing people, go to like cheap hosts and a .org site? just so they can really just stay on that classic editor.
are we going to see, like, what, what do y’all think is going to happen here?
Sé Reed: [00:07:39] I don’t think anything’s going to happen with wordpress.com users because they’re going to contact support. If they have a paid plan, they’ll get talked through it because that’s, they have a ton of happiness engineers there to do that.
And they’re just gonna. Adapt, just like everyone else does when your phone interface updates or whatever, like I don’t, there’s going to be a huge migration. wordpress.com users are not the migrating type. Let’s say a lot of different nations here still. I don’t, I don’t think it’s going to wordpress.com so much.
Jason Cosper: [00:08:09] Interestingly, if you are enough of a pay user on wordpress.com, you can install your own plugins and Hey, guess what the classic editor plugin is available. So there is a way if you pay wordpress.com enough money, that you can still fail back to the classic editor, if you’re really want to hold on.
Sé Reed: [00:08:28] Well, let’s be real about every one who has any sort of business, anything should be on the paid version anyway, which is the same price as all of the other managed hosts out there. So they should be on that plan, but be able to install plugins. But they actually mentioned that. Yeah, in the, they mentioned the classic block plugin classic editor plugin in that blog post as well.
So there. You know, this is why I’m not, I’m not really clear on what it is. They’re transitioning because they’re like, we’ve already been doing this since last year for all new people and you can still use these other ones, which you could already do. So not really sure what’s changing. That’s my what’s actually, maybe what I don’t get it.
Jason Cosper: [00:09:13] Maybe they didn’t have enough support load, and just wanted to make sure that their support people were just getting a lot of like, just like what the hell is going on.
Jason Tucker: [00:09:23] Yeah. It’s not
Jason Cosper: [00:09:25] the case at home. Yeah ever everyone’s at home, they’re not doing enough. They’re just kind of bored and listless. So let’s, let’s really just screw something up for our support staff and really listen to people complain.
Sé Reed: [00:09:42] I don’t think that kind of screw anybody up. Who’s on wordpress.com. They’ll handle it. They’ll contact support if you know the conversion to the classic block editor, but even just the classic block using the block editor. It’s, it’s not a problem. Like it it’s the same thing. Like you get used to the new interface on the side and whether you’re in the document tab or the block tab, I think that’s actually the biggest thing.
And then also do you, which, which invisible plus button do you click? I mean, this is not saying that there are not clunky things within the block editor, because I have been using the block editor a lot lately and it is, there’s some clunky nurse going on for sure. Well,
Jason Tucker: [00:10:25] Steve, will find out next year when he writes his blog post.
Steve Zehngut: [00:10:28] But, but right now he hasn’t, I can’t, I’m using the classic editor.
Jason Cosper: [00:10:34] So what will happen here also? Let’s let’s I mean, I seem to just want to stir up speculation. Of course. Yeah, it is. Is this a sign that we’re good. Start. Losing support for the classic editor. Are they going to stop? It’s been wrong.
Sé Reed: [00:10:56] They promised support.
Thanks drew years. That’s the end of 2021. So wordpress.com has been taking these jumps first. Anyway, the block editor was built to look like wordpress.com interface when.oregon.com were super separate anyway. So we’re all just moving in that direction. This is the same plan that’s been in place. So this is just a step on automatic side with the wordpress.com to go in that direction.
So this. Not a surprise for me, not really a big deal. It’s kind of like, Oh, I don’t want to use the word nothing burger. Cause I’m really hated. I did it. I said I wasn’t gonna,
Steve Zehngut: [00:11:34] but you
said you weren’t and then you did
Sé Reed: [00:11:38] prove it.
Jason Tucker: [00:11:40] No, it was recording.
Steve Zehngut: [00:11:41] Hey Jason, can you rewind the tape?
Jason Tucker: [00:11:44] Okay, here we go. So here, the thing is, is like, what’s the alternatives like they used to be.
We have like those like tiny MCE, ultimate and tiny MCE, like all these like better versions of it that added more little buttons. What’s that version?
Steve Zehngut: [00:12:00] Tiny MC advanced I think.
Sé Reed: [00:12:02] Yeah.
Jason Tucker: [00:12:05] Hey, they didn’t pay for the sponsorship. So I didn’t want to say their name, but thanks.
Sé Reed: [00:12:12] Alternative. I do want to talk about something that has affected everyone’s interface on WordPress. 4.5.
Jason Tucker: [00:12:20] Oh
Sé Reed: [00:12:20] yeah.
Full width editor, which now I can make an argument that what the hell happened to all this stuff. And that’s really frustrating because there’s like no back button. Like you can’t get back to that.
There’s no, like easy back to the dashboard land. You have to exit the full screen or click the w which takes you. It’s it’s not, it’s not intuitive, not a finger.
Jason Tucker: [00:12:46] No. Like hit the, hit the escape button or anything. There’s none of that.
Sé Reed: [00:12:50] I haven’t tried hitting the escape button. I don’t that’s
Steve Zehngut: [00:12:56] the MacBook pro doesn’t have an escape button.
Sé Reed: [00:13:00] there you go. So you can plug in your headphone Jack and hit button at the same time. It’ll be, it’ll be just a bunch of nostalgia wrapped up in here, and then you can go onto your MySpace profile.
Jason Tucker: [00:13:14] He can cut a copy of this, all the code
Sé Reed: [00:13:17] PHP all at the same time, and then, Oh, we’re old. And no one just knows what I said.
there, you see the full width. Experience, I think, is confusing. And it’s doing that automatically and taking away the, dashboard that’s been there that, yeah, it was disorienting. Like the other stuff you can figure out, but all of a sudden the header looks totally different than in the interior.
Like this is a big shift from the admin. to the, the full width experience, it’s most editor. And I also think this is another step towards what the new admin slash dashboard is going to be going towards, which is probably, if you want to hear my prediction for it, going to look a little bit more like what wordpress.com looks like,
Steve Zehngut: [00:14:10] say it isn’t.
Sé Reed: [00:14:14] Does anyone else see the trend?
Jason Tucker: [00:14:16] I see, I see, I see a trend. I see a trend.
Sé Reed: [00:14:19] It’s slow. It’s a slow build, but it’s there. And if you look at it big picture, you can see it. If you look at it in the micro, you’re like, Oh, it’s totally bad. But if you look at a big picture, you’re like, Oh yeah, that’s where that’s going.
Steve Zehngut: [00:14:34] When you look at it in the micro, does your voice, the pitch go way up like that
Jason Cosper: [00:14:37] all the way.
Sé Reed: [00:14:39] When you look at it in the back row,
Jersey, you look at it.
Jason Tucker: [00:14:49] So alternatives, let’s get into some alternative stuff. What do we got what’s what’s available to us. What’s available to, to the people that the people that Sé talks about that, that don’t know that there’s a plugin interface that you can add.
I know Cosper brought up one of the, one of the ones that he was, talking about, which was iceberg. could you kind of give us a little bit of what, what I sprigs about.
Jason Cosper: [00:15:17] So
Sé Reed: [00:15:19] iceberg.
Jason Cosper: [00:15:21] Yeah, I’ll give Jason a second to pull it up here. Iceberg is a very minimal, editor that is kind of reminiscent.
If anybody has played with something, or played with a ghost or like investigated that it uses a markdown editor, where. I
Jason Tucker: [00:15:43] don’t knock it till you tried it.
Jason Cosper: [00:15:45] Yeah.
Some more. You’ll actually like it
Steve Zehngut: [00:15:52] is that you knocking it fairly she’s a folly artist,
Sé Reed: [00:15:57] silently making faces continue. I wasn’t snacking. I was just making faces. Right.
Jason Tucker: [00:16:06] So go for it.
Jason Cosper: [00:16:08] Paragraph in, the iceberg editor is an individual block. So if you make a quote block, it, it will actually display a, a kind of stylized, version of whatever you’re doing.
So when you bold something in Mark down, it’ll bold when you, You know, set a heading. It’ll make it look a little different. There is a try button there. Jason, I don’t know if you want to click through to that.
Oh yeah. Live demos.
Sé Reed: [00:16:38] These always work well.
Jason Tucker: [00:16:40] They do. They do.
Jason Cosper: [00:16:46] Yeah.
Jason Tucker: [00:16:48] Didn’t do anything.
Sé Reed: [00:16:52] Wait,
Jason Cosper: [00:16:54] what is happening right now?
So Jason, just so something that I think is interesting about this, one of the things that I really have always liked in the WordPress editor is the ability that if you have something highlighted and if you hit paste and you can paste a URL like right in place, like you don’t have to create a link that will work here.
Sé Reed: [00:17:20] So one of the things you like most about this, is it emulates something from the regular editor?
Jason Cosper: [00:17:26] Correct.
Sé Reed: [00:17:28] Okay. Just wanted to make sure I was hearing that properly,
Jason Cosper: [00:17:31] but it emulates something that has dated back to the classic editor, not to Gutenberg, not anything else. Right.
Sé Reed: [00:17:38] But it still works in Gutenberg though.
Jason Cosper: [00:17:40] Correct. Also, Jason, if you hit the, little hash symbols next to, like a heading, it will let you set. What you, so the thing I like about this is the second you get into another paragraph and other block, whatever, it doesn’t hit you with that annoying toolbar that lets you set things bold or italic or anything else.
It just lets you right. And gets out of your way. You can write something, hit a carriage return and not get stuck up with, okay, what block am I choosing? So when you’re actually writing a post, as opposed to like creating a page, you can just write what you need to write. And if you want to switch to the block editor and do some, some block changes and stuff like that, you can do that.
Everything that gets written here is written as a block.
Sé Reed: [00:18:32] Okay. How are columns.
This is all I care about ever put, put an image next to some text. Impressed me.
Jason Tucker: [00:18:42] Well, there’s there’s I don’t, I don’t, I don’t know how to use this, so I don’t know.
Sé Reed: [00:18:48] All right, well, anyway, I’m not a huge fan of markdown in general, but I, I, you know, sure.
My question is, is it always in the black screen with the white text?
Jason Tucker: [00:18:59] No,
Jason Cosper: [00:19:00] you can change it. Theme it however you’d like,
Sé Reed: [00:19:05] then what it does on the front end. That’s just your editor, whatever you want to write in.
Jason Cosper: [00:19:13] And if you want to go back to the block editor, like I said, you can, you can, you can edit the topography.
You can, if you pop back out of this customized thing, Jason, you can see that like in the sidebar on the left there, that is all of the headers that you, so if you click to that, it’ll jump to the part that you’re writing. So it’s got. You know, a few extra things that you can do. the block slash commands won’t work.
So, so, if there is, column, you might be, I’m not sure how it works here. I can’t. Right.
Jason Tucker: [00:19:52] Cool.
Sé Reed: [00:19:53] well, to the, the, one of the things I like most about the regular block editor is it actually does give you the ability to look at the outline of your site and also see which are, which headings are, what that’s, what is really useful for SEO.
so I do like that. I like that this has the kind of the site table of content of the post table of contents in it, like basically anchor links within right. The editor, which is great. Right.
Jason Tucker: [00:20:20] That’s cool.
Sé Reed: [00:20:21] I just want to ask what Steve is doing right now.
Jason Tucker: [00:20:25] He’s doing the profile shot.
Steve Zehngut: [00:20:27] I’m actually looking at this.
I’m looking, I’m looking at it with you on my screen, on my screen.
Sé Reed: [00:20:36] You’re just picking her iceberg.
Jason Tucker: [00:20:42] So
Sé Reed: [00:20:42] you’re not hitting your buttons.
Jason Tucker: [00:20:45] You forgot the total. Yeah. I’m sorry. Yeah. Camera’s here monitors here. So when I’m working, you’re looking at the side of my face
Sé Reed: [00:20:55] and you have a new, a new microphone tool. So when you don’t hit it, we don’t know.
Jason Tucker: [00:20:59] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jason Cosper: [00:21:03] When Steve talks with both of his hands, we don’t hear him talk with one hand.
Steve Zehngut: [00:21:08] It’s true. And I do talk with my hands. So I don’t know. I don’t know how this is going to work.
Sé Reed: [00:21:19] One hand. Both hands.
Steve Zehngut: [00:21:21] Yes, exactly.
Sé Reed: [00:21:24] Stallion.
Steve Zehngut: [00:21:30] I need like a, I need a, I need a foot pedal for the function.
Jason Tucker: [00:21:32] Sé
one of the
things you mentioned that that was interesting to me was the fact that you were adding columns into, you know, into your posts, which isn’t something that you would normally do, like in tiny MCE or something like that.
You’d maybe you’d have like some CSS that’s building those columns out or, or. Something of that nature, how,
Steve Zehngut: [00:21:53] there was a column plugin for tiny MCE for awhile, you know, it’s terrible. No, no. There was an actual column plugin that allows you to create columns, insights, MCE. It was awful.
Sé Reed: [00:22:06] You could always do tables inside.
Steve Zehngut: [00:22:09] please, please tell. Yeah. 1997 called and they want their HTML.
Sé Reed: [00:22:15] I like how many retro things we could mention in this
Steve Zehngut: [00:22:18] episode, I was the master of nested tables. But anyway, go ahead, Jason.
Jason Tucker: [00:22:23] Yeah. Can you call span, say, can you call span between
Jason Cosper: [00:22:26] those two?
Sé Reed: [00:22:29] I liked my TRS the way I liked my nevermind. Sadly.
So when you’re, so when you’re adding in those columns and managing them, using the block editor, you just using something that’s built in just the builtin version of it, or you have some extra plugins that you’re using that adds in columns. What are you using for that?
Who are you me? Oh, I thought I thought we were talking about iceberg still.
I’m currently using what I talked about when we talked about our block library land, which is atomic blocks, which has, something called advanced columns where you can use the different, yeah. With severe vans, columns set all the margins and paddings, you know, you can basically go to town with the columns except for you.
Can’t go to to town right now. Okay. But you can Nope.
He doesn’t like beach obviously. but for the rest of us anyway, no, so I use a Atomic block, so here’s my question. Regarding, for example, iceberg, you said you could use slash the slash shortcode where you hit slash and then you type the name of the, block, and then you can use it in iceberg.
Can you do that with block libraries? So, because you can add atomic blocks to your post editor using this lash functionality. So can you do that in iceberg if use a plugin in the plugin?
Jason Cosper: [00:23:58] I do not know. However, the person who wrote. The person who wrote iceberg, wrote coblocks. So I assume, well,
Sé Reed: [00:24:11] I would, I would, yeah, I haven’t just made the jump for that, but yeah, I’m, I’m.
You know, I actually hate the columns in, and the media text, the generic ones that are in Gutenberg right now, they are, there’s where the, a lot of the clunk come from.
Steve Zehngut: [00:24:28] Well, the problem with the
problem with columns is just a standalone block. You can’t nest it. Right. So you can’t, you can’t start nesting co you can’t put columns in another block.
It’s a standalone by
Sé Reed: [00:24:39] itself. Dammit. We want nested tables.
Steve Zehngut: [00:24:42] Well, no, that’s what, that’s what atomic blocks opens up for you is the ability to nest those, right. Which is, which makes it actually usable
Sé Reed: [00:24:49] well, right. And you can also create sections, which so you can create a whole background, but not have the whole entire column be a certain way.
It just gives you a lot more. And that,
Steve Zehngut: [00:24:59] and that’s the problem with it. It’s not a true section, out of the,
out of the box.
Sé Reed: [00:25:04] Right? So all of this stuff I feel like is super new and I also feel like everyone kind of just jumped into the fray and they’re like, Oh, it made some blocks. And so, you know, we’re in that in between time right now.
It’s like how everyone is with their haircuts. Like, and it’s just like, they’re not quite near except for Steve’s you guys all look remarkably, well put together, but.
Jason Cosper: [00:25:31] And we work put together cause I pulled my hair back. I’m I’m getting very close to just going a wall, number four and just getting the whole thing off since I probably won’t be able to go see my barber since I won’t be able to go see my barber until like 2021, at least why not?
Sé Reed: [00:25:48] I mean, I think it’s the time to experiment with the new fashion of just like going full feral, like not
Jason Cosper: [00:25:56] Collin Farrell.
Well, I’ve been doing full Farrell for like a year and a half. I really, I have nowhere to go, but.
Right. So we’ve got a couple of minutes left. We’ve got a couple of minutes left. I just wanted to mention if you’re automatic and you miss the classic editor and you never want to let it go. There’s always Mars at it. Which, has been around for for years and years, and really is just a, a straight forward classic editor style blog editor for Mac users.
I posted a link in the chat. I don’t know if Jason’s going to pull it up or not.
Sé Reed: [00:26:45] Why don’t you just write your freaking blog post in Google docs?
Steve Zehngut: [00:26:49] I was just going to say the older alternative is Google.
Jason Tucker: [00:26:52] It’s funny you say that because actually a plugin for Google docs that will tie into WordPress. So you can actually edit your posts inside the Google doc.
I know we’re out of time, but a lot of my clients actually edit all their stuff as a team in Google docs.
Get it where they want it and just copy and paste it in.
Jason Cosper: [00:27:11] She thought one of the things that Matt said he wanted to do with Gutenberg was make like a better collaborative writing experience.
Sé Reed: [00:27:19] That’s coming to that. So if, if we. You know, it’s a slow map. Is there,
I have to listen really hard to hear the plan, but there’s like a five to 10 year plan for his editor.
They’re just moving slow because lay community tends to freak out about things. But the turnover for the community is pretty high every one to two years. So if they just wait longer than that, The new people come in and they’re not upset about the things that were introduced two years ago anymore. So I’m pretty sure that’s what’s going on just in case, you’re wondering
Jason Cosper: [00:27:57] why.
So my prediction, I was going to say my, my prediction is the collaborative editor will show up, but it’ll show up as a jet pack module. So you will.
Sé Reed: [00:28:10] It’s not a bad prediction. I don’t know. I feel like it should just be Gutenberg because there, I don’t know. I don’t, I don’t know about that, but I do know that you can just write in a Google doc and then copy and paste and it will abate.
It’ll, it’ll keep all your formatting. It’ll keep all your stuff. So if you’re looking for the class, Editor experience. And you’re not trying to get your column on and insert images or whatever. You can use a word doc at this point. I don’t know
Jason Tucker: [00:28:35] why, like I said, you could install this on from, from, automatic that we’ll just pull in Google doc straight into your website.
So if you want to do that, I tried playing with it. It’s interesting. It only works obviously, cause it’s Jetpack. It only works with the, posts themselves and other custom post types. But. Yeah,
you can do that.
Sé Reed: [00:28:53] I mean, yeah, we haven’t really talked about block editor and what that means for custom post types and all of that fun stuff either, but that’s like a whole other world.
I think the main thing that I’m I’m feeling right now is just the push to the full width, which it kind of went on and discussed. I mean, I’m sure it was discussed heavily in the, in the various forums, but it kind of went, came out without much hullabaloo and it was just like, okay, whatever. Does anyone just, everyone does not care anymore.
Jason Tucker: [00:29:25] I don’t know. I guess we’ll have to talk about it next episode, but we’re out.
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Steve Zehngut: [00:29:59] Bye.