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Michelle Keefer of MKConsulting joins Jason Tucker and guest co-host Jen Miller to discuss how you can smarten up engagement strategies with personal touch points, swag, and meaningful conversation. Plus get tips for reducing digital distractions in your marketing, business, and daily life.

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Jason Tucker 0:07
This is episode number 168 of the smart Marketing Show digital versus physical marketing.

You could help us out by checking out our sponsor ServerPress, makers of DesktopServer. They make local WordPress development easy to tell that serverpress.com and the query. It’s our new show on the WPwatercooler. Go check it out at Big Orange heart.com slash security.

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I’m Jason Tucker, I’m an IT director.

You can find me or Jason Tucker on Twitter. This is my friend Jen Miller (lol). She’s a Founder and Director and CEO.

And we have Michelle Keefer. She’s a Reacher researcher strategist. My goodness wanting talking so hard yet

Unknown Speaker 1:00
Did you?

Unknown Speaker 1:05
I don’t know who’s a Brit. There’s a Bridget.

Unknown Speaker 1:09
I am.

Jason Tucker 1:14
Let’s just say that graphic didn’t just magically appear there like you know? Yeah, Bridget Bridget is what I say is on assignment. That’s a great way of just just just, you know, just just saying she’s not here. She’s on assignment. How are you ladies doing this? This morning? If you’re in the morning, I think I think most of you are still in the morning or very close to it. So how are you? How you doing? Good.

Jen Miller 1:41
Doing great.

Michelle Keefer 1:43
Again, Happy Friday.

Jason Tucker 1:44
I know right? Friday is my recording day. It’s like one show after another. A lot of stuff going on. Yeah, good stuff. So today we’re going to be talking about digital versus physical marketing. How should we start off with this like what’s I know what digital is Do a physical is but like, what are the differences here? And what should we be looking at in our current climate of, you know, we’re in places where we can’t physically be near one another. But the physical thing is still something that’s tangible, something you hold in your hands. How do you how do you manage that?

Michelle Keefer 2:19
Well, it’s really interesting because, you know, physical marketing is most commonly related to events or swag. And so this year, events kind of disappeared from being physical and turned into digital. And so swags kind of the only other thing, but most people only think about swag as like promotional items that they have at their events. And so, um, you kind of have this like, gap in people understanding, you know, what, how to do physical marketing, how to get those physical touch points, and a time when we’re not around each other. And, and so yeah, it’s just it’s an interesting time to talk about how we can kind of break down why how we think about Physical marketing and see how you can still have those personal touch points even in a fully digital era, like right now, and but even post COVID and posts you know, new normal when we all start to reintegrate into life in physical life again, there’s still some really solid concepts that you can carry over through that in fact 2020 was I went to a presentation and in like 2019 or like the summer and it was all these big gurus from customer experience and experiencial marketing and they had all slated 2020 to be the year where we see physical marketing like make this big comeback. And then COVID happened and then you see and it felt like it was even more of a reason for physical marketing to make a comeback. And but now we’re in August and you haven’t really seen it you’ve seen everyone really grappling with like how to do digital better, and I don’t know it just seems like a good time for this chap.

Jen Miller 3:59
Well ago, Jason, Michelle and I were actually on the phone talking about ideas for my company because I’m rolling out a new podcast. And so we were talking about some ways to help promote that and get people on the show. And so we came up with a physical marketing idea that I’m in, in the process of implementing, but she’s perfect at this because she can see it from all angles. Like she was saying, she went to that seminar or workshop where she got some ideas, but also she’s been doing marketing for years and years and so she can find a way to kind of merge both worlds. So awesome. It’s a great speaker.

Michelle Keefer 4:42
Oh, you’re so sweet. I’m so excited to to hear how everything comes out because I know it was so much and

such a new thing for you to do like some type of physical marketing touch point. And but I’m really excited to hear how it all turns out once it actually hits the mailboxes. Exactly. Right. So Jason, what I’m doing is a boxed offering, you know how you can unbox things. It’s like super fun. So something on that of one of my favorite things and sharing it to my clients and as a lead magnet even but also to get people on the show to share their ideas. And because my company is very much about invisible marketing or digital marketing, you know, we, we create something and we have a product but people don’t necessarily attach us to it. So having physical it will sort of found that I think

Jason Tucker 5:40
that’s cool. Yeah, I you know, working in the IT space, a lot of the companies that I work with have huge marketing budgets, like monster size, marketing budgets, which means usually their products are super expensive because you know, they’re putting a lot of money in in order to be able to like make that money and one in particular is A company called ricotta. And what berkata did is they actually, you know, there’s there’s like double double thick tumblers that the, you know, they sell that are like, there’s a whole bunch of different brands for them. But this one in particular this company, they say that they’re the largest purchaser of these tumblers, and they turn around and just give them away to their customers, which is crazy. Like, I have two of them and and it’s crazy because they, they, they say go sign up, you know, on our website for, for a demo, we’ll do a free demo. It’s like 30 minutes or whatever, they show you how the camera works or whatever. And then they send you this tumbler in the mail. And then they just they just braid you Yeah, they just hit you up. They’re like that tumbler was 50 bucks like you better. It’s super interesting to see because it’s like, you know, and I’ve been to places where like, you know, like an IT some company like dance Or HP or whatever, they’ll buy you lunch and they’ll buy like 30 people lunch and tried to like wine and dine. Yeah. There’s there’s plenty of ways to do it to like tell people, we’re important where people you should be talking to here’s, you know, here it here’s a great way of kind of exchanging your time or exchanging your, you know, here’s a here’s a pamphlet but here’s also like this tumbler for you to take a look at.

Michelle Keefer 7:24
Yeah, I think that there’s lots of different ways that you can do it. And so Jen, what you just said really stuck out to me. It’s like a way for someone to ground like ground into your brand and like, have that touch touch point. And I’m a big fan of what you’re describing where I’m sending like a gift for participating in a demo. I’ve even done things where if you if we find someone who’s interacting with our brand a lot on like Twitter, we send them just something in the mail. And I first got turned on to the idea of like physical marketing when I was working for a telecommunications reseller. They would do handwritten notes and during like certain points of the sales cycle, and during like the customer, like anniversaries, milestones and things like that. And so I was like, hmm, you know, I know that I don’t like to get stuff in the mail. And even if it is just like a card or a pack of stickers, I actually saw someone tweeting yesterday. And they received a like this huge pack of stickers. And it was, you know, just extraordinary because it wasn’t just this touch point that they received something and now they like they’ve attached to that brand more, but now they’ve taken it onto the back into the digital space to talk about the physical thing that they’ve gotten. And I think that’s the biggest thing. You know, this the show today is called Digital versus physical, but it’s really about understanding how they work together to make both points stronger. It’s not you know, it doesn’t have to be an either or. And you even see that sometimes with like traditional marketing when you talk to people like print advertising or radio ads. typing. They’re so anti Facebook ads or they’re so anti social media marketing, when you have people in social media marketing that like you don’t need to do print ads, like it’s antiquated thing, or direct mail, like try to talk to a digital marketer about why direct mail is important. And they are just like, their heads explode, because it’s how, you know, we had traditional advertising and marketing, and then the technology boom, and everyone got online, and everyone became more and more digital. And so digital marketing just completely took over. And now it’s all about SEO, and pay per click, and like all these things, and and it’s like, we just left one for the other. And I think any of us if we were to try to apply concepts like that to our personal lives, or professional lives, or business relationships, like just dropping one thing for another, like doesn’t usually go very well. And so it’s so interesting to me that as the entire marketing industry. We just like, oh, we’re not going to do that anymore. We’re going to do this other thing instead. And then it just Has snowballed and now we’re completely inundated in digital in the digital space. We receive, you know, so many messages a day emails, you know, we’re on social media, we’re just scrolling through feeds. We’re just mindlessly consuming all of this digital media and the and so to reintroduce a physical touch point into that, it just it grounds you and it’s like, Huh, that’s a little different, something I can physically touch. But also the thoughtfulness goes so much further. People are getting used to algorithms we’re getting used to automated email when automated email first came out, like people didn’t know it was automated, they are just like, wow, these people are, they’re so on top of it, and then communicating to me. And but now we’ve had it for so long. We’re like, oh, all this shit is automated, and no one actually is paying that person. And so you’re constantly having to shift back and so to have something personalized and it can do more than just get someone’s attention. It really shows someone that you You can, you’re thoughtful and you care about them. And I’m working on a project right now with one of my clients and, and it starts off with an email form where you have to opt in. Hey, we just want to check on you guys. COVID 2020 like this year has been insane. How are you doing? And it’s a quick survey with emojis like, how are you doing personally? And how are you doing professionally, and it’s everywhere from like, crying and heads exploding to just like, but then there’s an opt in like to where they would want to receive a gift and physically a physical address where they would want to receive something. And then that’s kind of surprising to me because it’s not an incentive. I like you’re sending me a gift for what it’s like, oh, we’re just sending you a gift because it like, because we care about you. And so it’s like, we’ll jar someone and catch them off guard if they’re not expecting it. And that goes for a well placed like phone call or email or anything. If you’re doing something that’s going to like take someone off of the expected experience in a positive way, then you’re going to have such a more lasting impression.

Jason Tucker 12:09
Yeah, our, our foreign correspondent Bridget says that marketing takes seven to 10 touch points to make a sale. And that’s your right, Michelle, that it doesn’t have to be an either or, I think I think especially if you’re going to write one of those cards, or if you are going to send off some something that’s going to like that emoji thing sounds great. Because you’re getting, you’re getting a you’re not asking them like how are you feeling today? without them having to write it sucks. They just go and say it sucks, and then send in the thing. And now it’s like, now you know that your customer base is either doing really well or they’re really great liars. Or, or they’re, they’re not doing so hot and now you can figure out how you can customize what the next thing is that you’re going to be sending them. And that’s where that that card might be a great idea or something But like that,

Jen Miller 13:01
yeah. And not having it just be another PDF to download that they may not ever look right. With when we did women who WP like it was a great concept and everyone kind of joined together and we were having meetups and we were really we were doing blog posts and speaking and having a great time with it. But until we had the, our Wapuu our little logo that as a sticker and on shirts and it didn’t really feel like a movement and then once we got that Wapuu suddenly it just exploded because it was something physical tangible with and we found her I mean, we found her at wordcamp us on a big sign. I don’t even know that. You know, people who were in charge of that marketing event, realized that she was associated with women who WP they just thought she was A cool icon and user You’re too you know, and so it was super cool to see a physical evidence of the intangible thoughts and ideas of this organization being displayed. I think we were even in the Huffington Post because one of the automatic people who had been interviewed for remote work was wearing I want to wear a shirt. And and so it helped to kind of push along the organization and that was a nonprofit, but in business, same way, you know, you had all those people put them on their computer that gives you exposure. Yeah. So and and the mug that Jason was talking about, and you know, other tangibles. I know I have a speaker from Xavier here. We’re camp Austin.

Michelle Keefer 14:54
Speaker gets out right everyone matters right

Jason Tucker 14:56
here.

Michelle Keefer 15:02
How quickly both of you grabbed a piece of swag right?

Jason Tucker 15:08
All sorts of stuff.

Jen Miller 15:12
If you look at my screen I’ve got my GoDaddy water bottle up there the pink one just because I love it says make your own way and make me feel good looking at it. I don’t even use

Jason Tucker 15:23
I’m drinking out of a ServerPress cup

Jen Miller 15:27
here yeah

Jason Tucker 15:31
I don’t think we actually buy stuff anymore just right. It’s just what it just what it is like just real quick we can we can make sure that the folks that are watching see their name show up on the screen because that’s that’s usually pretty awesome. Including greeting cards and their designs Bridgette talking about sending thank you cards. That’s that’s awesome too. Rhonda would love it if they made a beaver from Beaver Builder. You know Like all sorts of stuff like that would just be cool to tie all those pieces together.

Michelle Keefer 16:06
Well, and I’m glad I’m glad you pointed out the GoDaddy one, Jen because it doesn’t you didn’t keep it because it was from GoDaddy, you kept it because of what it said it had a positive impact message that you can relate to. And that’s another really cool thing that you can do it with swag in physical touch points. You know, it’s wonderful when you have a story like your Wapuu or your logo or set or something that people get behind because they like the imagery and then they can really resonate and share it. But you know, it doesn’t always work out that way. And, and you and it’s got to be more than just a logo on something right? It’s got to be you know, why do you care? Why did the brand care enough to create this piece when I worked at pressable and we had a lot of focus on like being a digital nomad and there are so and there’s so many people working remotely that we wanted to support. And so we did you know, like hammocks and like picnic blankets and things like that because we wanted it wasn’t about just like Having something from us it was about having something that you could actually use living out the brand culture that we’re hoping to influence. And so you can really think, you know, not just as who you are as a company and what your services are, but you know, we can really easily slide into a conversation about like persona marketing, and like, who are the real people you’re trying to work with? What do you guys have in common? What do you all like? There’s a realtor in Fort Worth, Texas, that literally all they did was like food. They were like a food critic online, and then they would help solve real estate problems based on like, where you wanted to live based on what type of food you liked. And believe it or not, there’s, like, seems totally random and arbitrary. But there’s a whole apparently an enormous amount of people who choose where they want to live based on what’s closest to the restaurants that they like. And so, you know, you can find these things that you have in common and then create swag around that culture too. And, and then again, that goes back to just like the thoughts fullness of it and finding something that you’re really going to resonate with your audience.

Jen Miller 18:04
Well, you mentioned the restaurant and moving. So I just recently, a year ago guess moved to Phoenix. And what my favorite restaurant I discovered seven years ago is here. And so when I was back in Huntington Beach, I used to say, you know, if I’m going to move somewhere, I’m going to move closer to barrio cafe.

An awesome restaurant, and I did you know, so

one of my reasons for wanting to move. That’s so funny.

Jason Tucker 18:35
There’s such pros to which you got to have Dutch Bros if you’re going to be that area.

Jen Miller 18:41
Isn’t that funny? I don’t drink coffee.

Jason Tucker 18:44
Oh my goodness.

Jen Miller 18:46
Rhonda mentioned cards. So I got this card from someone. And the message in it says you’re almost too awesome to be real. Like, how cool is that? Right and

Nobody sent that kind of thing out to their clients, we won’t hold on to them. It just makes you feel good. Yeah.

Michelle Keefer 19:08
Well, and the physical experience, we’re just going to remember even if you think about like Cyclops, like, psychologically how your brain operates when it consumes something physical versus when it consumes something, you know, digital, Bridgette mentioned earlier, she said, you know, seven to 10 marketing touch points before you even get to a sell. But if you’re relying exclusively on digital that number in some cases, depending on what your industry or service or product or service might be, goes all the way up to 22 touch points before somebody actually feels like they are familiar with you and a point where they’re ready to like start taking over more action based decisions. And, and so even if you think about it, you know, someone’s going to, you want to do this, you want someone to resonate with you as quickly as possible, and so frontloading your sales tactics With a physical touch point, or really nurturing your audience or your existing customer bases for asking them for a referral, or asking them to review you, and, you know, those are other things where and then you reward them by a genuine thank you gift, or thank you card or thank you note or something to you know, to make those those cycles shorter, because they’re more because they stick more when you have that physical touch point inside of them.

Jen Miller 20:31
Yes, I use fresh books for my accounting. And every time Yeah, well, and one of the main reasons I use them is because when we send out an invoice once it’s paid, then they’re asked to review our company. And we’ve collected, I don’t know, several hundred reviews easily that way and a lot. Usually after someone’s paid, they feel that they’ve gotten value or something there and so All those reviews have been positive, you know, so it’s been a great way to not that we would have negative reviews, but it’s been a great way to collect and sort of feel good, you know, with our clients, because then we can follow up with that. Thank you so much. That was a great review. I really appreciate the fact that you took the time and then then they gush about the service or gush about service and, and tell us more and so it leads to more conversations and, and other products that they might be interested in.

Michelle Keefer 21:30
Yeah, well, I’m a fan as a good tactic to anytime you can get a customer who’s maybe moved on from consuming your product or service like getting, you know, keeping that it’s hard to keep a relationship sometimes because it feels like well, is this an authentic relationship? Or are they just trying to like get me to buy from them again? Or are they actually genuinely concerned with how I’m doing since I have their product or service in place and and that goes back to the thoughtfulness of what those touch points are. If, you know, we can’t just like, ask for a review, ask for a referral, ask for your repeat business and ask and ask and ask even if our product and service is offering them really valid, you know, value and helping their brand grow. And there’s, we’re human beings and we like gifts we like being thought of. We like knowing that someone actually cares about us more than just a number. And so it’s, you know, sliding those in. can be really great.

Jason Tucker 22:31
Yeah, I got one where the, the, the company hit me up and just they’re asking a bunch of questions. And one of the questions was really odd. It was like, what’s your shoe size? And I’m like,

Okay, sure.

It’s a size 11. And then no joke around Christmas time. I got branded shoes from the company. Awesome. I was like what, like you guys wrote, put your logo on the side of some Chuck Taylors. In Melton, for me from my different country, like, Are you kidding me? I lost my sight granted, it was just the coolest thing for them to like send something like that out and it’s like, wow, you know, I sent them some customers, they thought it’d be great to do something cool that you know and send me some shoes. How cool is that?

Michelle Keefer 23:19
It’s really neat. Well, I’m also size on the onboarding is a really great touch though. We’ve done that before. The T shirt sizes when you onboard, and

Jason Tucker 23:30
yeah, it’s nice, smart. Jimmy had something.

Jen Miller 23:33
Well, I just said siteground also is known for socks. Right? So Oh, yeah, we wouldn’t have expected that they were going to send you shoes. You were thinking maybe that they were going to send you socks. And so it’s, it’s that little tiny bit of, Oh, this isn’t what I would have thought, you know, that makes you I think appreciate it even more because it’s not just the everyday what you’re used to seeing when you attend the conference. Yeah.

Michelle Keefer 23:58
So what I really liked do and what in. And that builds on what you just said is, I like to keep the framework of how do we surprise and delight our customers and surprise and delight our partners. And so when I think about, you know, because I don’t use like a traditional sales marketing funnel, I use an hourglass because that’s how you reach sustainable growth, because then it flips back to the top. So all the work you do bringing someone in, then you nurture them, and then receive advocacy that that refills your pipeline. And, and so every single piece of that, like from the very top of the funnel into the onboarding into the customer nurturing, like, Where can we surprise and delight, and if you if you were to stop and look at that, from that framework, and say, Where are these options then you can get really procedural about it and you know, to ask this shoe size to a new partner coming on board because you know that this thing is going to happen. And there’s a lot to be said when you can be responsive, kinda like we’re doing with the emoji like status check because we’re responding to what currently exist in our work environments. But you know, having those underlying things that just that, that keep you moving forward is really fantastic. And actually, there’s another there’s a new software, and it’s called sin dosa. And I’m a huge fan. And it’s basically automated swag that you build into your marketing and sales processes. So just like you would automate, like a trigger of send this email, send this gift, and you can put things in so if a customer hits, you know, a month afters, or six months or a year, whatever is appropriate, then you’re it’s odd. It’s it’s all integrated together with all the rest of your marketing and sales efforts. And we’re just integrate those sell those physical touch points into it. And so

yeah, I’m a big fan of that.

Jason Tucker 25:51
That’s cool. It is really cool. A little more into that, like what what do you How does that work and how does that tie into the pieces But you know, people are watching right now. wood, wood, wood.

Michelle Keefer 26:04
Yeah, so and it’s Santos is fantastic. So I actually enrolled as a partner with them. And because I believe in it so much, and because it fuses my love of sending out gifts to my love of automation and simplicity. And so for example, if you know you’re going to so if you say you’re using Salesforce or HubSpot, and you get a new lead and you drop them in and you tag and say this is someone that I’m scheduling a coffee with, well guess what we can’t actually meet for coffee right now. So instead I’m going to automatically send you a $10 gift card for coffee. And so when we meet you know that I’ve I’ve just heard a buy of purchasing your coffee and then and say things go well we go through the discovery. We we look at budget and timeline and realize okay, yes, we are actually a good fit. So my Salesforce I click and say I move them from a prospect to an opportunity Well, now they get another gift from us. It’s like we are so excited about the opportunity to work with you. Here’s a little, you know, here’s a little something that’s reflective of our brand. And then when I go into Salesforce and say, Hey, we won, we closed this opportunity. They, you know, we send out our onboarding information, which may or may not include something, but now it’s ticking. And after six months, Sentosa knows like, they’ve been a customer for six months. So now here’s our reengagement. So just like you would go through and map out and plan like an email automation flow, you go in and you map out and plan like these physical touch points as well. And Sentosa helps you automate it and so and then you can go in and add in, you know, personalized tweaks and notification So, so for example, and you don’t want just like a coffee mug to go, but you want a personalized coffee mug, and so you have personalized coffee mugs all loaded up. But then a week before it’s meant to go out, you get a notification that says, hey, it’s time to personalize that coffee mug that’s going out. And now I can put something like, you know, I met Jen and I know she’s really bubbly and really, you know, focused on living a happy, positive life. So I’m going to give her this really good feel good quote on her coffee mug. There you go. But Jason, he’s really into Star Wars and like a little bit, you know, cold culture humor. So I’m going to put together this super clever pun on his coffee mug, and then he gets that one. And so even though it’s an automated touch point that you can expect, there’s still an opportunity for you to personalize it based on the relationship you’re building with that client.

Jason Tucker 28:31
How cool is that?

Michelle Keefer 28:36
And I love to help people think about these things. And I worked for a homebuilder ones, and that one was super fun because they got to like it. We did all these foot, you know, slag touchpoints you know, throughout the wholesale cycle, but there is nothing better than these like beautiful gift baskets that we made for the new homeowners as soon as they walked into the house. It had you know, champagne and glasses. For some families but other families you know, we didn’t do the alcohol based on what we learned about them but there was like everything you would need for your first night paper plates, paper towels of Domino’s gift card for $50 to order your pizza while you’re moving in, like then they would go upstairs and have like a find another little surprise in their bathroom where we had like these like crystal soap dishes setup for them and then they were embossed with our brand, but they were beautiful and our logo was on it but it didn’t take away from the beauty of what the item was. And so they kept it and then they would go and find a pepper ground grinder inside of their kitchen so as they explored their house they were just over and over and over. Just validated that they they’re in the right house they love being there and and that we care that they’re in our home too. And, and we almost always always got like five star reviews on everything. We became the Top Producing division in the entire country. We had the best reviews from below And home like homeowner reviews out of any other division in the country. And it was because our homebuyers knew that once we sold them our house, we weren’t done with them. And, and that really makes a big difference.

Jason Tucker 30:13
Right? That’s like the first time that you have or that you you have a very unique opportunity to be in someone’s home before they even get to be in someone’s home. I mean, what else can you do that it’s like Domino’s could show up and be like, Hey, we just dropped the pizza off. But the idea that you’re able to do that, because you’re essentially you haven’t handed the keys over yet. Now you’re handing the keys over and you’re like, oh, how cool is that? Like it

Michelle Keefer 30:39
well. And it’s the same thing when you’re providing a service to someone even if it’s a digital service, like you’re about to give them their website or something like there are ways that you can sneak in like extra little surprises for them and, and digital and physical ways. And so again, it’s not an either or how can we blend it you can take this tactic of surprise and delight and, you know, pour it into swac strategy, but you can also put it into your digital services as well and, and just making those personalized touch point and I think right now especially everyone is so just again we’re just inundated in the digital we’re completely immersed in it now like my kids just became digital nomads like they’re not even going back to the brick and mortar school like they’re here working remotely with me now forever and or at least for the rest of this year.

Like forever

Jason Tucker 31:32
swag bag for for working from home now I know that they have the company logo and all this stuff on all those shirts and everything.

Jen Miller 31:42
I just got back from vacation and I stayed in the Marriott and I always say Marriott’s Jason knows that about me.

And

they had those same types of touch points that you’re talking about with that new home builder where, you know I show up and They offer to upgrade which you know is always nice. And then. So you go to your room and then you turn on the TV and it says, Welcome Jennifer Miller, we’re so grateful you’re staying here with us, you know, and to just have those little tiny personal touches, you know, you say, like at the Ritz Carlton, there’s a welcome gift. It’s huge and amazing. And, you know, there’s all kinds of fun things that can happen when you have allegiance with a company like that, because they do remember you. And so it’s fun for the person who is experiencing it. But I think it’s like, Michelle, you’re showing us you know, from the marketer standpoint, it’s fun being the marketer and thinking of how can we surprise them. And when those surprises happen, it just makes that brand loyalty even more tight.

Michelle Keefer 32:49
And that’s really all we have anymore. We can talk about engagement, we can talk about reach and we can talk about all of these things. But ultimately, we have got to get our brands to stay ties are our customers to stick to our brand and if we cannot do that, then we’re you’re going to be constantly chasing the dragon and feeding the dragon just chasing it and feeding more advertising dollars more ideas more turn on let’s use this tool know that tool now this tool know that tool like you’re just constantly turning until you can crack the nut of what does it take for people to actually want to stay with my brand and refer my brand to other people. So they take on the burden of growing my business through their advocacy than us constantly having to fill up the top of the pipeline again. And but I do want to take a moment to kind of flip this on the head of what is what is swag look like gone wrong, and I have a couple of stories of what when swag doesn’t get the desired effect. And it goes to show the thoughtlessness behind the swag. And so the first thing you see I’m like hi like luxury serve like dental sir like things like that. Like if you go to a really Expensive dentist versus like your regular dentist. They’re gonna you know, what’s commonly seen with these expensive dentists is that they’re gonna give you like a welcome gift, like, oh, you’re a new patient, here’s your welcome gift. And also, here’s your bill for your service, right. And so you’re getting this like $6,000 bill. And it’s like a cheap chinky tumbler that’s not even a nice tumbler. And so it’s like, I get what you’re trying to do here. You’re trying to make me like you but you are presenting me a bill with a gift and my gift is super cheap compared to the bill that I’m receiving. And so you have to make sure that what swag items you’re picking match your price points. That’s really important. You don’t want to look like you’re cheap because then you’re going to get the opposite reaction and instead of your customer, your new client or customer feeling valued, they’re going to feel like really used like oh, okay,

Jason Tucker 34:56
like that customers got a $3,300 water pick or something like that, where it’s like 300 bucks, they just spent 10 grand on you $300 nothing, just just throw it at them. And you’re good,

Michelle Keefer 35:09
which makes a good argument for why you have tiered swag also, and, and so you can have, like your basic swag that kind of everybody gets. But once you your client reaches a certain spend level with you, you got to up what they’re getting. And also even having tiered swag for your partners, you don’t want to be sending your partners the same things that you’re sending your clients. Because again, it’s got to be thoughtful. So the idea of like, I’m just going to go on to online and find this Tumblr and I’m going to buy 10 thousands of them because that’s the cheapest way for me to get a good price per item. And then I’m just going to send it out for everyone for everything. Like save yourself the money, don’t even do it. Don’t even try it. If that’s gonna be your approach. Don’t do it. Don’t do it. Right. And the other idea or the other story I had kind of horror story swag horror story, and was actually it’s really personal story. So it When I was having my youngest daughter and there was an issue with how I read I registered for the hospital like do all the things you do gone to the doctor that morning my doctors like all right, well, it’s time go have this baby we’re calling them over there. And when we got over there to check in, there was an issue where they’re like well you haven’t paid your deductible yet so you can’t come in to have your baby you have to go to the emergency room and we’re like you have all of my insurance you have everything like I’m about to have this baby and it was a nightmare. The lady ended up getting fired like after the fact I spent like an hour in the parking lot in labor in my car because they would not let me into this hospital. Once my husband like God and taught and in touch with some admin person Anyway, it was a disaster. Finally get in had my like, had my daughter like within minutes of me getting into the room. And so so much for having like this peaceful like birthing plan and then they brought A little yellow bear that said, We’re very sorry.

And so I was just, I was, how many people? Are you up with that you have a closet full of girls that say We’re very sorry. Like, are you planning on providing bad service here that you have? And I’m very sorry get for me like, I wanted to set something on

fire. I don’t

Unknown Speaker 37:27
know.

Michelle Keefer 37:29
So get like I said, again, if you’re trying to think through things and say, like, Look, we know we’re gonna make mistakes and we want to be able to have a way to touch point on that when we do make mistakes. Make again, make sure that what you’re offering matches the level of mistake that you’re getting, like if you’re a hosting company, and you know, there’s no such thing as 100% uptime guarantee. And you know, you have a blip or someone site goes down and you want to send them like we’re real sorry, like we promised this as a at normal, like that’s complete, you know that’s reasonable and but makes you know what you’re going to send them is going to be related to like, Oh, your site was down for a couple of hours while we had to reboot a server. And you know, so you can still think about those types of things. It’s not a bad thing to be ready to admit that you’re wrong. But again, think how wrong are you? And does that match the I’m sorry gifts. Really about this comes down to how thoughtful Are you being when you’re selecting your swag, you can’t if you’re just trying to get again, if you’re just trying to bulk order something on mass, and then you’re going after it all wrong, and you should save yourself the money and go hire Facebook consultant and waste your money that way.

Jason Tucker 38:44
If your ecommerce site goes down and you in your literally, you know, you spend $1,000 in hosting, and then you’re making say, $10,000 a day $20,000 a day on your site, and then you get I’m very sorry from them that that would suck. I would be

be upset

Michelle Keefer 39:02
unless he’s wearing like a gold chain with like, here’s like your next three months of hosting for on us, right? Like

there’s something so swag is not always fun and games, it’s fun it can be. But it ultimately comes back to how thoughtful and deliberate you’re being and how you’re designing out. When someone receives something, why they send some why they receive it, and does what they’re matching or the reason why they’re receiving something match what you’re giving them. And so those are just kind of like some goals with them.

Jen Miller 39:42
I remember when Autry my daughter and I were in Barcelona, and we stayed in a Mariela. Right? And we have a little message on the TV. But as soon as we walked in the room, someone had just shown up and laid out tapas and so We walked in and it was like, Oh, this is a pull through

Michelle Keefer 40:03
your window or like on your bed waiting for you.

Jen Miller 40:08
We had a two bedroom suite with a double like lover shower and a seven foot tub. Like it was an amazing room. And so when we walked in, in the living room area on the table, where was this food? And we were starving, because we just flown in and gotten a cab and you know, so we were just like, beside ourselves and just so excited and ate. And I think it’s because they had to like it took a few minutes for them to get our room ready. So we just were hanging out in the lobby, you know, and then they call us back and we went up. And, um, so Andre, and I were like, Wow, thank God, we were counting like we were so impressed. So we ran down back to the lobby to go get something and say thank you, right. We came back to our room. The trade has been cleared and in its place or sparkling water bottles and a CD of flamenco music. It was a you know, every time so we started testing it every time we walked out the door, somebody would put something in the room. It was the craziest, but we were only there like two nights. But it was the craziest hotel experience because every time we left, something would happen when we went to go eat dinner something was calm, like it solidified my relationship with my good friends that know it well, everyone the rich because they did something really nice wants to but like I had not realized how tied in I could get to a brand in two grants. And then like if I ever go back to Barcelona, there’s nowhere else I would think to stay. You know, and right. That’s

Michelle Keefer 41:55
a wonderful

and the cost of their time. sending someone in to refresh the room, the cost of having those items prepared for you, or those little touches for you in the long term are so outweighed because you’re on a LinkedIn thing, right or on a live stream right now talking about the Marriott, like, the long tail goodness of them, making sure that you had an exquisitely exceptional, happy, surprising experience just continues to give and to give and to give. And so if you’re having trouble, like, you know, justifying the cost of the slack strategy or something like that, you really have to think about it. It’s not like ROI. It’s not, you’re going to put $100 in and get $1,000 out. It’s an investment that you’re making to. And if you’re not willing to invest in your customers being loyal to you, there’s no way in hell they’re going to invest in being loyal to you back. Like they’re not going to do it on their own. You have just like, you have to ask for it. And you have to show them why you’re worth that loyalty. And so I’m impressed by Mary out

Jen Miller 43:00
So you should ask me more because there’s so much more but so like, that’s my, for vacations for business travel, like they’re my go to some areas, they’re not in I have to do something else. But most of the time I end up in one of their either true hotels or, you know, affiliate affiliate bags. Yeah. And and it’s, it’s because I’ve come to expect a great experience and I mean, on our vacation this last week, because of COVID. You know, there’s all these like weird things that hotels are doing. But the hotel I was at, I talked to them before I arrived and before I made the reservation, I said I just want to know, you know, I know you have a swimming pool and jacuzzi. I’d like to make use of that. What is your policy during COVID and they said, Well, if you would like to reserve it, we can give you a two hour block. Um, you know, just let us know so that we can sanitize it before and after. And we’ll look it up. And that was awesome. Because not only did we get use of the pool and jacuzzi, but

we were the only ones in it,

like we had a party, you know, like, it was so much fun. And we invite our friends, we could have up to 11 people. And, you know, it was just it, but had I not had that relationship with them. That has been,

Michelle Keefer 44:24
you wouldn’t have even known to ask,

Jen Miller 44:26
I wouldn’t have even thought of it. And I’ll tell you, you know, I think we were the only ones in the hotel who were used using that pool all week because are in the fitness center, because I knew to ask, and that’s what happens when you start to get connected to the brands. My hosting company, I would ask them for things that I wouldn’t necessarily ask a different hosting company, you know, just because I know what my level of expectation has been set. So yeah,

Jason Tucker 44:58
let’s transition into that. The next little quick segment of the show, which is our Tool Tip of the Week, our tour Tip of the Week is brought to you by the query. The query is a new show that we’re doing on a day to day WPwatercooler network where you ask a question, and Jason Cosper answers it. How cool is that? You just you just hear the question, go over the website, de porco.com slash the query, you ask the question, and then we’re going to be collecting those questions and getting them together. And then Jason Cosper is going to answer them for you on the show. So go take a look at that debut. hardcore.com slash the query. So Jen, you know, I hate to throw this on you but you’re gonna be the first person that needs to speak about your tour Tip of the Week. I typically in them, so hopefully you have something prepared. If you don’t, I’m gonna give you a couple seconds here to come up with something while you’re

Jen Miller 45:53
good I Michelle Jason, I think both of you know this. I’ve been working on a master’s program for schools. I’m also in the process of writing another book. And so I have been using a recording app that does automatic transcription. And it’s super, super cool. And it’s like, perfect. Okay, and it’s just called voice recorder on my phone. I just wanted to encourage people as you’re trying to get these projects done, especially things that are very text heavy, like one of my papers was 35 pages, you know, and so being able to dictate it to my phone, and then have the transcription there and just copy and paste it into my doc was amazing because it shortcutted the time I’m a type of fast typer but it it allowed me to just sort of have thoughts and then I could just go back and edit. And so um, Jason, I know you use lots of tools with transcription. We’ve talked about tons of them, but This one, it says tap me Pro is the membership. It’s like $1 99 a month or something. Um, but super, super cool, easy app on my phone to be able to get things done, be a little more productive.

So I want to share that.

Jason Tucker 47:17
I love I love tools like that, especially when the thing actually does more than what the built in, you know, dictation system actually does where it it’s gonna take a couple seconds and go like, Oh, he’s talking about this in this context. Oh, this is how this is being structured. You know, I I’m, I’m not the greatest writer. I’m definitely not the best public speaker. And so when I go and start yelling at Siri to have her do stuff, things, things go all sorts of wrong in Jen Miller knows it because she has to try to translate what it is I’m saying to her when I’m just in my car driving someplace and I’m just essentially yelling Not the the lady in the in the phone here. And it’s it’s it’s rough. So it’s cool if it’s giving you good results. That’s great. And if you take some extra time to actually like, structure your sentences in a way that it’s not going to like mess something up, then that’s good too.

Jen Miller 48:18
Okay, Oh, you know what there’s another one I’m going to share it just because you let me go first time for me. So during COVID thing, you know how I like to do things right? Not really somebody who sits for very long. And um I have been having a really hard struggle not going out and experiencing and traveling and like doing more with my life right now. And so I decided I went through I have a whole bunch of instruments that I got from my grandfather and one of them is a banjo mandolin. And so I decided I’m going to take mandolin lessons, I’m going to learn how to play them. And I’ve been taking lessons through an online company that does remote learning. And the app is called take lessons. And so that’s where I do all my scheduling of my lessons and everything and my instructors grant. And it’s been amazing because I’m learning how to play mandolin. And it’s fun. And then I had never played a fretted instrument. And so that led to me discovering guitar tuner with if you are a musician, and you probably know about this, but if you’ve never done like, a fretted instrument, so each stream has to be tuned individually, that’ll show you if they’re high or low, you know, flat or sharp. And it’s so cool. So, those are my things that I’ve been discovering the last couple weeks.

Jason Tucker 49:51
Awesome. Thank you for that. I appreciate that. Michelle, what do you got?

Michelle Keefer 49:57
I forgot about the tooltip

Jason Tucker 50:02
She talked about

Michelle Keefer 50:06
like I’ve already talked about we can like review and we could talk about

Jason Tucker 50:13
five minutes have at it. What do you what do you got? What’s something that’s what’s something that’s interesting that you’ve been? You’ve been looking at yet some YouTube channel you’ve been watching. I watched tons of YouTube channels just about people that are having to do what you’re thinking about doing of

Michelle Keefer 50:28
watching. It’s like the bus like my heart My whole life. I’m not thinking about marketing right now. I’m thinking about school a conversion. And so

Jen Miller 50:38
yeah.

House living thing like,

Michelle Keefer 50:43
yeah, so I mean, I’ll have to give it up for Instagram. And they’ve definitely helped, you know, we spent the last two years researching, like everything that can go wrong or will go wrong with, you know, having a bus as a tiny home. And it’s definitely you know, it’s extraordinary. To be able to, you know, do something as simple as follow a hashtag called Schooley conversion. And see people all over the world that are successful in doing this and learning about the products that they’re using, and what they, you know, learned about living full time in a bus, to the point where we were able to really shape our plan. So we’ll have we’ll have actually have two Tiny Homes, we’ll have like a permanent home based tiny home where the bus will be parked. And then we kind of live between all of the space while we’re settled, where we can get into the bus and go, and without ever being on the bus for more than, you know, a month or month and a half at a time before we’re back at our home base. And, and I’m just incredibly grateful for all of the people who have done it wrong already and told me about it. So I don’t have to make the same mistakes they are. So um, you know, crowdsourcing in general is probably my favorite tool. And don’t be afraid to ask strangers questions would be the tip to go along with that tool. I

guess.

Jason Tucker 52:02
For that I’ve been watching a lot of YouTubers who essentially were traveling the world and now they can’t travel the world so they’re like we still need to make content like we still pay our bills doing this sort of thing so what do we do to like make this happen and I’ll definitely share with you some of the the different YouTubers that have been doing that and some of them are doing it very wrong. And some of them are doing it very right and some of them are just kind of like

Michelle Keefer 52:28
you know, just flailing

Jason Tucker 52:33
whatever happens happens and if if we crash this thing I get it and if it burns up because I don’t know how to do electricity is one of those years like oh, wow,

Michelle Keefer 52:42
yeah, that’s a video that will get a lot of likes, like let me accidentally set my bus on fire when I click this with that.

I mean, that’s advertising gold right there.

Jen Miller 52:54
When I when I was in college, I for a month while my car was in the shop, drove something

Unknown Speaker 53:00
I don’t even remember what the round of the car was. But it had this button. And when you push the button, suddenly the passenger seat jumped up like four inches it was looking eject button.

Jen Miller 53:13
And we found out about it accidentally well turning a curve on a frame.

Jason Tucker 53:20
Great. Well, so I’ll share I’ll share with you my tour Tip of the Week. So I’ve been as everyone has been stuck in meetings and dealing with zoom meetings and dealing with Oh, I don’t know, I’ve been on Citrix ones. I’ve been on zoom ones. I’ve been on meetings like this, you know, all sorts of stuff. And I’ve been trying to find a way that I don’t have to log into like 900 different email accounts to be able to pull in those meetings or find where they’re at in which because I run I run my life via these various Different email addresses. So if we’re doing w water cooler, I have a day water cooler email address, and it has its own Google Calendar and has all of its own Google everything. And each of these different things that I do through my life via one company or another. I have a different email address for Well, those are different email accounts I have to log into. And it’s it’s insane. So I started looking at this, this particular product called meter. And it’s in et er, and it’s available for the Mac as well as for the iPhone. And I have no idea about Android, but there may there may be something similar to it. But what’s great about this thing is at least on the Mac is it lives up in the menu bar, which the menu bar is kind of sacred to me and I delete a lot of apps that throw themselves into the menu bar if I can’t remove them. But this one has a great place in my menu bar and what it does is I click on it. It gives me a list of all the different meetings that are coming up for me And I click on that meeting and guess what it does it links to the meeting URL for you. And you get to pick which web browser so if you’re if you’re the kind of person like me, where I use Chrome for one thing, and I use Safari for another, and I use whatever, you can tell it, open up the meeting in this browser, and then it opens up the meeting in that browser. That’s which is great. That’s awesome. And what what else is, you know, because all this stuff is kind of so wrapped up, you know, in my life right now is I’ll even show you like in two days and eight hours, your next meeting is this, and you click on it, and it shows you like that meeting that’s coming up with a list of all the other meetings that are coming up. So instead of having to open up your calendar, and then you’re in like this, like weird calendar mode, where you’re now trying to like, you know, kind of mess with your calendar, you don’t have to do that you just click on it, get a list of all the online meetings that are coming up, and you’re good to go. So take a look. That the the price for it is free to download. They do in, in purchase in app pricing. If you wanted to get the pro version right now it’s 399 399 is nothing when I don’t have to think about opening up my calendar. So you know, go take a look at it, see if it’s something that will work for you. And if it’s not something that works for you, let me know, because I love trying these things out and I’ll try all of them twice. So

Jen Miller 56:28
let me know. Okay, sounds good.

Thanks, Jason.

Jason Tucker 56:32
Yeah, yeah. Well, let’s, let’s, let’s wrap up. How about that. So thank you very much, Michelle, for coming hanging out with us. We really appreciate it. I you know, we, we’ve had, we’ve had a couple weeks where I’ve been very, very busy at work and I’ve had tons of stuff happen and but both you and one of our other guests have been very gracious and be willing to come back even though that you knew that I just couldn’t make it happen.

Michelle Keefer 57:00
So thank you for that. I really appreciate it. We’ve, we’ve all got to be willing to ebb and flow with one another, life’s always gonna come up on if it’s not you, it’s gonna happen to me or Jan or Bridget or whomever else. And we’ve got to show ourselves grace and each other grace. So I’m happy to be here, for sure.

Jason Tucker 57:16
Thank you very much, Jen. Again, as always, it’s always good to hanging out with you. And, you know, we talked a lot via text message. So it’s really cool to be able to have you in person in a way on the internet and we can kind of hang out and talk

Jen Miller 57:31
to your face.

Jason Tucker 57:34
Exactly. All right, well, here’s our outro I want to say thank you for everybody watching I really appreciate it. Here we go. Do you want to support us over on Patreon go to patreon.com slash WP water cooler. And here’s the fine folks that have helped us out so far. We really appreciate that.

You like Hit the subscribe button, click the little bell, we’d appreciate it that’s gonna notify you when we go live next. And if you don’t want to listen to us live, don’t want to watch us live. We totally understand you can listen to us on the podcast, go over to any of the local places that are here. You can go to Apple podcasts, Google podcasts, Stitcher, YouTube, Spotify, we’re everywhere. So feel free to go take a look at that. We’d really appreciate it. Thank you very much for helping us out and join us. talk to y’all later. Bye.

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