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In this episode, Jason Tucker and Bridget Willard were joined by Jeff Matson from Pagely’s NorthStack. He gave insight into Managed WordPress, WordPress Hosting, and Managed AWS Service.

Thank you to our sponsor!

The WPwatercooler network is sponsored by ServerPress makers of DesktopServer. Be sure to check them out at as well as PeepSo.

If you’re interested in sponsoring the 40 minute mark of this show, check out the details on our sponsor page. We offer episode by episode spoken ads, rather than large contracts. A show by you for you.

Stop Getting Cheep-A$$ Hosting

WordPress hosting matters. Hosting is hosting is hosting until it’s not. When it comes to your “hobby,” if you take it seriously, it has the potential to become your career.

It seems like WordPress hosting is saturated, but it’s really not. Pagely was the first to create WordPress Managed hosting back in the day. You can hear Joshua Strebel talk about the last ten years in his WordCamp Phoenix talk.

So, how do we convince content creators, bloggers, and non-inside baseball writers to think good hosting is important?

When you pay for $5 hosting, you get $5 hosting. They’re digital slumlords, Bridget says in jest. If the support folks are getting paid minimum wage ($7 something in VA), the Five Dollar Host loses money every time one of their customers calls.

“Even if they are getting paid minimum wage, if they talk to you for an hour, the company lost money on you.” Jeff Matson

Bridget spends $25 a month on Pressable and thinks that’s a reasonable amount for anyone to spend. To her, it matters that the company she chooses has a reputation of treating their employees well.

“I don’t want to use a service that has a big turnover. If they can’t keep their employees, they have internal issues.” Bridget Willard

Hobbyists Learn Everything When Their Sites Blow Up

It’s true. When your blog gets notices, as Jason points out, and all of a sudden you’re getting traffic, your site may not be able to handle that. Managed hosts will scale the traffic.

Do you want to learn the hard way? Your hobby or small business needs to value website hosting.

“You teach them that their business is important.” Jeff Matson

You don’t need more web hosting than your site requires, especially if you’re getting only 20 hits a week. But with something like a managed service, you can scale up and then down when you need it.

What do you get with Managed WordPress Hosting?

If you’re in the $250 a month or $25 a month plan, when you pay for managed WordPress hosting, you’re paying for support. Larger fees at the front pay for concierge-level service. Jeff recalls how Pagely had top-tier folks in their slack helping with Gravity Forms site migrations at midnight. That’s the kind of service you get with top-tier Managed WordPress Hosting.

Why not run your own box?

You could run your own DigitalOcean box, but why? If you’re running your own box, you have to do all of the security maintenance, patches, and updates. Also, if you’re facing a DDOS attack, you have to face those trials, too.

Almost any level of business should outsource these types of things so they can focus on working on your business.

“Is that really what you want to spend your billable hours on?” Bridget Willard

So, the perfect solution between running your own box and buying high-end Managed WordPress hosting is managed AWS service.

What is a Managed AWS Service?

With NorthStack, Pagely is bringing the same level of product without the support. You can get a fast site that scales when someone posts your article to Reddit.

“It’s an unbelievable product to host your sites on without all the extra stuff that you might not need.” Jeff Matson

This is made for developers who use GitHub and CLI to create apps and build sites. For now, that’s where NorthStack is focusing. You pay for the amount of resources you’re using instead of a general bucket. Automated deployments for the win.

This product better suited for small to enterprise agencies. Not everyone needs Disney-level service.

How do you market your product?

Marketing products in a word-of-mouth space like WordPress requires finesse. Jeff makes recommendations on products based upon his personal experience. He regards his recommendations as a reflection of himself. In short, Jeff manages his personal branding and that’s how he recommends products.

“I keep my reputation above all else and that’s what I use to market products. “Jeff Matson

Tool or Tip of the Week

This week’s Tool or Tip of the Week is brought to you by PeepSo. PeepSo is a super-light, free, social network plugin for WordPress that allows you to quickly and effortlessly add a social network or an online community right inside your WordPress site. Your Community. Your Way. Find out more at at

Bridget recommends Everybody Writes by Ann Handley. It gives actual and practical tips on effective copywriting.

Jeff recommends The Lean Startup by Eric Ries.

Jason recommends the app Vignette which allows you to (at a minimal cost) add and update photos for your contacts.

Do you have any tools or tips we should know about?

We’d love to hear from you. Also, how are you marketing yourself? Tell us in the comments below.

Become a Patron and support us on Patreon!

Become a Patron!

hey what's up everyone this is Jason Tucker and this is WPwatercooler's WPblab 127 this particular episode is brought to you by desktop server makers of Surrey press their website over at desktop server they're calm they got a bunch of cool stuff happening over there whether that one in particular is WP site sink if you've never used a BP site sink before it's absolutely awesome it's it's a way of being able to push data between sites and be able to have those two sites get synced up so if you have a local development environment and a remote kind of push those things over it's super awesome so feel free to go take a look at that over at server press calm and also we have a we have a awesome new sponsor called peep cell and we'll be talking a little bit more about them later rajat we were we've been totally rear door guests at this point so Bridget tell us about yourself real quick and then we'll go on and start talking to them them our guests everybody at Bridget Willard you can find out more about me at Bridget wheeler calm I do not do Instagram marketing as a standalone product if you do hit me up because somebody keeps asking me who does Instagram and I don't know anybody actually so that's just really bizarre um but I do specialize with WordPress products and services so I have room for a couple more clients it's getting Agana packs but if you if you need help with your WordPress product or service find out more at Pritchard Willard comm slash higher - purchase or just go to I'm Jason Tucker family over at Jason Tucker my website is Jason talked about blog and I do this show as well as another cold show called WP water cooler go take a look at that tomorrow's gonna be interesting because I'm not actually on the show Steve's gonna be hosting the show tomorrow and we'll see what happens with that it's kind of where those wild card shows where Steve figures how to use a computer and then he starts telling everything about you know ton everybody about WordPress stuff so maybe I'll talk about flash or director one of those like really cool fancy you uh products from back in the day uh Jeff tell us all about yourself Jeff how you doing hey new good my name is Jeff Batson I am on Twitter at the Jeff Matson I handle documentation for Paige Lee as well as some of their marketing as well as I am leading up the various community things and general kind of taking control a little bit of marketing of our new product North sac that we're launching you can also find me at Jeff Madison net that I don't update very much but you might find a snippet or two well it's good good to have you on it's good to have you on I I've been using Paige Lee for oh my gosh oh and I say it's been like six years or five years or something like that without my client sites I love that thing it is is amazing the stuff that you guys been doing and you - your new your new dashboard is just phenomenal I love it so you guys been doing good stuff over there Congrats thanks I'm glad to hear it the team is the team is insanely talented it's it's it's bizarre how how just crazy smart everybody is it's not um I actually join Lee join the team probably four or five months ago before then I was over it I was working for raka genius working on gravity forms for the last four years or so yeah you just keep picking losers one after another huh great yeah it's like the most awesome companies in the right yeah well I looked at it and I was like if I'm no longer gonna be a gravity forms who do I work for and immediately it Strebel came to mind so I messaged him and I said I said you wanna you want to work on some stuff and he goes yeah let's do it he's like I need I need some some documentation help and then we're trying to launch this noir stack product so do documentation until then and then kind of do more north stack stuff after that and so my all right let's do it that's cool that's cool so how do you want to how do you want to structure this Brigitte how do you want to kind of a approach this idea of a saturated market and how you kind of penetrate that saturated market well I mean hosting as hosting as hosting as hosting or it's not you know like I was thinking felt like some of the things I'm really snobby about some of the things I'm not I'm not snobby about pizza hamburgers or Donuts I like them all doesn't matter if it's frozen pizza or super fancy pizza thick thin thick crust hand tossed with garlic not garlic if it's pizza I like it right and but I am snobby about old fashions if you're not straying if there's not a big ice queue what have you been doing just give me a shot of tequila you know what I mean so like in the WordPress like I've been part of this law I've been a part of marketing for WordPress since 2015 but like you see these people in these Facebook groups like I just I want it really cheap hosting I'm I'm with whoever and you know it's like under ten dollars a month and like I just don't want to pay any more it's just my hobby and I was there for so long cuz I was just like brown whatever and the mood owner pressable after they became my client for a while until they took it in-house and then I'm like twenty-five dollars a month and they actually tell you every month that's what I want like it's so easy to take money from me you actually fill me not not give me some two hundred and seventy nine dollar bill let's say it's this much a month you know what I mean and then they handle stuff like if you're just a blogger which we're not allowed to call ourselves but so you were like oh this is just my hobby yeah you too could be a guru is my hobby for about what eight years until became my job that hobbies are the beginning of your passive projects the beginning of another stream of income so like I keep telling people stop kidding cheap-ass hosting I mean I actually really blog post twenty-five things I spend more than twenty-five dollars a month on which was an argument for managed wordpress hosting but those people I'll deal with all that nerd stuff and you just keep writing like why do I have to see with all this stuff we're security updates and cPanel cPanel cPanel is harder than like doing stuff in front page when I was doing stuff in HTML like I don't want to deal with that you know what I mean so then like it seems supersaturated cuz it seems like there's a lot of choices that's what I'm saying like oh we're press hosting or web site hosting is saturated and then you have all the people who have their white label versions of it you know and they have their own hosting or they have their own machines or they might actually have their own machines and I know white labeling AWS or something and and then you're like well how do I choose whatever like so the regular people like I think of content creators group on Facebook as regular gen pop not WordPress we're not hanging out with everybody that works at a host on a regular basis talking about whatever a time down time server lists whatever caching I don't know whatever words that make so pinko talking to hosting people and so like with these people like the genoise who actually have websites they don't like they don't know anything that's not a price but they learn everything when their site blows up and it goes nuts like somebody goes and puts her site on some you know you know some huge list someplace or they get a lot of traffic or whoever the the latest Oprah you know type person is that goes and says go check this out or somebody puts on Instagram and you go click on it and go buy this stuff your site blows up and things stop breaking or start breaking and you picked a file or web host and you know what you got five dollars like I I just I feel like we need to stop devaluing I like it constructs you the lowest bit is a suicide bed and you're never to take it you know if they're doing something for that cheap either it's crap they don't understand the scope of work or they're doing it for so cheap of a price I could it disappear so as Jeff is like let's talk about managed wordpress hosting and i'm like let's talk about a seemingly saturated market and why it's actually not saturated at all and what's the next thing and WordPress hosting which is managed in WS server so yeah so I that's it that's it so I was in I was actually at hosting before I worked for gravity forms - so back then I back before what Gabi really into the WordPress community in general was when I worked for in motion right so I I was doing various support stuff for them and then I switched over to doing content content marketing stuff like that and then I got involved the WordPress community became the you know that their first kind of evangelist role and that sort of thing and brought out there and there was one of the original developers on the on the bold grid project where they launched that that sort of thing back when was like this super secret project really two years I raised working on but and then I decided you know I wanted to branch out a little bit one two gravity forms and so on and so and now I found myself back to hosting and what the crazy thing is is that you see a lot of people who want really cheap hosting right like they don't value it enough and what are you getting for that five dollars right like you have the thing is is that if you're if you're if you buy paid you know five dollars a month on your hosting right just think about their support people right they gotta pay their support people a decent wage right if they're not paying them even if they're paying of a minimum wage which I really hope that none of these support people are getting paid minimum wage cuz that's just a recipe for disaster yeah but um but you figure even if they're getting paid minimum wage which in Virginia here it's like seven seventy five or something like that right like you talk to them an hour and that company lost money on you not including obviously their their electricity their server uptime their sis admins that have to set things up any advertising that they did on you and then you drop a coupon on top of that and know they're really not making any money right so they're eating so much money off of you and they're kind of betting at that price that you're not gonna have any traffic or stuff like that they're packing a server so hard that they're making sure that not everybody and the server's getting much traffic at that point because if they got a ton of traffic they're in trouble right so yeah like it roasting is is just traditionally such a race to the bottom right but what happened years ago is that when Paige Lee came out with their managed wordpress product which was what created managed wordpress right like it didn't exist before Paige Lee at all people were freaking out about $25 a month right like people were freaking out about 15 25 bucks a month you're out of your mind why would I spend 15 $20 a month on hosting and you're like really so like what do you expect to get otherwise and now Paige Lee's like our cheapest plan starts at 200 a month like but what we're selling is we're selling high-end concierge type stuff because I was there when gravity forms moved there moved their site over to page Li I was one of the guys that was working late at night to get that site moved over and get all the new stuff launched and all that stuff and Paige Lee absolutely totally blew my mind and that was part of why I work for them now is because it was very much that concierge service we had somebody in slack at midnight helping us and somebody who was not even just at the time you know at the time we didn't even realize that we thought it was like I was some random guy right but it's like it's a head of hosting ops and stuff like that you know like the guy the guys up there you know he's not a low-level tech support guy like when you talk to Paige Lee you're talking to you know you're talking to a tearless system and it's like that very much concierge you know talk to you on slack that sort of thing and that's kind of the same general idea that we're doing with more stack but without the over-the-top support so the people that don't want to spend all of that money to be able to get our support because that's what we're really selling you right if you have an issue we know before it for it and we know about it before you do you don't have to report the issue to us we'll report it to you if your site goes down for five seconds you already know about it we've already told you but we're doing that we're bringing that same kind of level of product from via North sac on a pay-as-you-go you're kind of on your own but you can offer you can get some kind of support package on it but if you don't want support yeah pay that kind of money you know you come over to north stack and you get an unbelievable product to be able to to host your sites on but without all of that extra stuff that you might not need rightly get a small little startup you don't you be paying 200 bucks a month you know you got a small little startup you're getting 10 hits of a week or something like that so you jump over to north stack and you pay next to nothing right for your hosting you have a really fast site that scales and then all of a sudden you know your traffic spikes up somebody posted your stuff on ready hit front page your traffic spiking through the roof well we just scale it up for you so you're good you know Nordstrom Rack Nordstrom Nordstrom Rack I mean if pages like Nordstrom with the concierge like I went to a wedding a few years ago and I said look I'm 225 pounds to 14 today by the way relation thank you I'm like I'm - I'm 46 years old at 200 and whatever pounds I need a dress it looks good for a semi-formal wedding and they the lady handed tooked out three dresses and I picked the first one and it was 200 something dollars so I was happy to pay it right I've had time to go through Marshalls and Nordstrom Rack or Macy's or wherever to find a dress that fits yeah it's my first wedding as a single person I wanted to look as good as possible whatever like we pay for that kind of service and you can do that at Nordstrom and I didn't take it back like some of the people that do that stop doing that oh but like North Iraq go to North Iraq pick out whatever I want it's on sale great but you know what I'm saying like I I feel like we need to do a hell with noir status by developers for developers but think of like a blogger Jeff how how do you sell manage toasting to a person who thinks that their business is not that important well you teach them that their business is important that's that's the good part right so like and you go you're live I would have people whack when I worked back when I worked in support they would call and you know when I was at in motion doing shared hosting you know things happen with shared hosting you server spikes you get this and that and you know things happen it doesn't matter how hard you plan for it but that would happen a site would go down and some I'm losing millions of dollars I go on your five dollar plan that's that's really how low you value your business like come on guys you need either you're lying to me about your millions of dollars which is generally the case anyways or you know you you value your site so little that you're willing to spend a small amount of money on it when you could spend a little bit more and get you know top-notch service kind of thing like that and make sure that your stuff never knows that we get people all the time they come into our army or local meetup that they they've either spent way too much on their hosting because they think oh my site come on you talk about my site like my site my site brings everybody to the site like it my contents the best my my you know tchotchke thing that I'm selling in WooCommerce is the best thing ever yeah they're gonna come to the site I gotta pay the $500 for hosting and then you go log in there and you're like you have like four people log on to your site and two of them from the same ip address like what's going on here oh but you have those folks well they're paid they're kind of they're kind of thinking ahead which there's nothing wrong with thinking ahead but you're saying with with something like north deck you're you're you're able to not have to think ahead rather you've already picked the right solution that can scale right right that's it that's that's that's exactly our North sag is designed so it's made for you know as it exists right now it's it's primarily made for developers right which we may change or evolve down the road but mainly what we wanted to offer is something so that say your developer and you make a small product like for example I have this little thing called word bits that's just a dumb project of mine what it does it takes a little code snippets and it generates more press plugins out and I have that thing just sitting on a server I don't know if I'll ever make money with it I don't not really try and write like it's just a fun little project at that point I think it's a couple hits here and there but I'd never want to take it down right and like that's the kind of project especially that is useful in north stack on one end because if all of a sudden I decide I want to do something it kicks up and I get it's getting millions of users a day then North sacs gonna scale that with me so what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna pay for what I use and then that's it so if all of a sudden somebody saw my project and thought it was awesome and hip front page of Reddit and hit national news and turned into this massive thing it doesn't matter how much traffic you throw at it it's just gonna scale with it and then of course north sex got all this built-in page caching everything it delivers things statically it's all based on CD ends and things like that so it's it's it's built in a way so that if I was getting a small amount of traffic and all of a sudden it kicked up to millions of traffic it moves up with me and then say that traffic dies down right that that big hype just disappears then it just scales back down with you can you pay for that you're paying for the amount of resources you're using rather than a general bucket pool so instead of a cellphone minutes your pay-as-you-go right and I've been seeing has I've been seeing a lot of these these trends right there's a lot of people that are going straight to run in their own little digital ocean box for five bucks or something like that or you know lie node or vulture or any of those other you know a little small VPS companies and they're running these these these VPS is like oh well I can just do it so much cheaper and faster you know on my own I'm like that's that's fair right like you're trying to save some money and I get it and I have boxes like that that hold like get repos and stuff you know but with this you don't have to have that server maintenance stuff because if you're somebody that's running like a digital ocean box or something you know make sure those security patches are up-to-date or you got to make sure that if there's an attack coming in at your site and you're just getting slammed a lot of times you don't know what to do or you get that scenario where all that traffic kicks up and now all of a sudden you got to try to Rhea resize a box you try to it's it's it's completely timing out trying to connect to it it's miserable when those boxes go nuts so what this does is instead you just scale up with it and we manage all the backend and everything so we're handling all of your all of the the caching layer that's happening on we're headed the web server layer we're adding the CDN we're handling all those things you just push your code via command line utility we use that you download the command line you create an app just type in a North's a cap create it creates the app and your command line and then when you want to push your code you just tell it to push and it pushes your code up deploys it you're good to go that's cool it's really cool it's it's not it's it's a really cool project and I'm so unbelievably excited for it to come out because guys made something that like you said with a digital ocean box it's simple to go and push something to one of those but you you don't have the added benefits of all of this infrastructure that's been built around it to make sure this works correctly and just like if Bridget liked the way I was just trying to I was trying to think of an easy analogy to make this thing work well is that not that you need one but just I'm just saying that you know audience is that if you have like a small apartment and you're paying like you know say five hundred bucks a month for the small apartment we live in California so if I remember maybe but for 500 bucks a month you get like a two-bedroom one-bath right and then after a while you end up having like a Christmas party and you want to have all these people show up well now your living room becomes eight times the size that it needs to be allows all those people all that traffic to go oh my god that'd be so awesome all right did you imagine that happened for real like you virtualized your house yeah but this this ability to quickly kind of go from one to the other what's this turret there's there's like an acronym that just defines this that is it foreign to me but it's this idea of having a full stack fully built out infrastructure for those do you remember you know what I'm talking about it's almost like SAS but it's it's it's for a particular type of fully built infrastructure III can't remember what it was nothing nothing enough something ahead yeah I thought I saw a couple a couple different companies that we're talking about this sort of thing and oh it's just interesting I mean you have competitors in this space there definitely people that are doing this type of thing right it just are they doing it the same way that you guys are doing it I mean it seems like they're doing it on their own with AWS this sounds like you're getting a lot of help yeah she wants to spend their time doing that like let's talk about why how important it is to outsource this stuff that's really like where you want to spend your billable hours man you know what host or managing Amazon Web Services absolutely like it the thing is to not even it's not just smaller people that you know don't want to put the the resources and effort into its people who have a basically unlimited amount of resources that still put their money into us managing their stuff I mean look at our client list right like you Disney on there like Disney has plenty of money you know what I mean like Disney is one of the largest companies in the world you know and and they are still paying Paige Lee to manage all of their servers and everything when they can absolutely you know hire some kind of team or something like that to to to deploy their stuff on AWS so if they just want an AWS they just go that route right but they go to us because they know that we are extra specialized and we take really good care of them and we take full credit if there's anything that goes wrong we monitor their stuff 24/7 you know they know that they have a team that's fully watching them at all point all the time to make sure that everything goes perfectly smoothly so that's that's the biggest thing that's what people get when they spend a little bit more on hosting and they really kind of dig into what they're getting is that support level because yeah you could you know a $5 VPS is a $5 VPS most the time right like those little servers like you'd spin up a digital ocean or line out or whatever you want it's I mean it comes down to its really pretty much the same thing right but when it comes down to getting things like support and custom things that we've built on our stack to make sure that your site performs fall like flawlessly we're constantly paying attention to your plugins we're making sure that if there's any super leaf SKUs security vulnerabilities that we immediately know and immediately patch you if we're not already creating a patch ahead of time for it you know we're doing all of these different things to make sure that you're always safe at all times and that's what people are really getting when they're looking at higher quality hosting yeah I was watching Josh's talk that he did at WordCamp Phoenix and that was a that was a thousand pretty cool that's a pretty cool talk that were you present when that I wasn't there but I did watch the video yeah really good stuff and I it was neat cause it was listening as listening to him essentially kind of go through the history of Paige Lee and how they started out how they kind of went through you know the highs and the lows the stuff breaking stuff staying up all those sorts of you know kind of it's Joshy the Duke could tell a good story he did it was super fun to kind of go through all of that and you know we've been doing we've been doing WordPress as a community for many many years now at this point we've seen you know almost two decades worth of stuff going through all of this and a lot of us have gotten older the companies have gotten older we've gotten more mature in the way that we approach things in some ways in some ways but I like the fact that he and you guys can go dig around and look for that particular video but it's it's really neat to kind of see how someone took a business that way and then found that he could not just make money off of just cheap crappy hosting that all the way else was doing it's like oh yeah you know there's all these other companies are doing this like no no no no we're not doing that we're doing premium hosting and here's how we're going to do this premium hosting and then to top it off it's like okay well now we do that let's do this fully scalable thing it's cool it's it means that that your company's actually approaching this in the right way and that you're able to if you want to go with fully hosted fully managed will be everything or hey we built everything for you and so feel free to kind of put your data on there and get the host of that some really cool stuff yeah I mean it's it's it depends on you know your your individual needs and that sort of thing and that's what we want to make sure that people are taking care of right if they have different kinds of needs if they if north stacks something like north sex a better fit for them why can't we bring that same architecture over to a lower price point just without that crazy support that we got going on because everybody how do you differentiate now like how do you how do you show that you're able you know that you guys are doing this and that you're different than the other companies that are out there well part of its reputation right like a lot of us at page Li page Li has a reputation right they have a we have a outstanding list of clients you know we were the first ones to come up with this and we've been doing so of course we've been doing it the longest and you know we put our price points in a way that we can you know take care of our employees too and things like that so that everybody's nice and happy and everybody's doing a great job so the differentiator is that we use page ly to say look this is who we are these are the same people that are working on North sac but say you're not going to quite talk to them as much you know or that sort of thing because there's a little bit of a different payment structure kind of thing so we just pretty much use the the page Lee name at this point and a lot of its word-of-mouth well that's what we're trying to do here and that's why that's why I was brought on to lead the community stuff is that um is that historically I've been good at just making friends and talking to people and that's what we really want to do we want to just we want to go out there and say look we got this really cool product decide for yourself kind of thing because that's what really that's what really shows it right like if your buddy tells you hey check this thing out it's gonna work way better than he had in the world well and also you are understanding who your audience is like before when we were chatting or like it's by developers for developers right so it's not for me okay that's fine and that's fine a lot of people want to just hit everybody with a white stroke just volume for the sake of volume and that's all always a bad way to do things but so everybody's your customer nobody's your customer right and so um I just I like that approach I like the way that you guys are going about it and I mean I know I don't use Paige Lee obviously but I've I know some of the people that work there and they have a great to me they have they're like Trader Joe's right they have a very low turnover in WordPress there is an extremely high turnover and oh we're pressed businesses so much to build that like ways of transferring sites from one host to another with a you know kind of a flick of the wrist kind of thing I mean not just with changing services but their employees Oh some notorious companies where you're like oh I work here no I'm working here now I'm working here now I'm working somewhere else and somebody like me who reads Twitter all day for a living or for four hours a day at least I know who's working where although I missed that you weren't at gravity forms I felt really it was it was one quick little small tweet that I have pretty much that's why so what I do is I don't necessarily the way I approach marketing in general isn't normally the same kind of ways other people do right I don't like I don't throw constantly like company tweets out there and stuff like that I was already talking about Paige Lee before I even worked for them because I hey you guys are doing an awesome job you know when they really helped me out so and there's not really much difference in my social media so he I'm not surprised not surprised at all I mean that's not that's a good way to have it like you're your brand is you and that's fine but I'm just saying there's a lot of times where you see acquisitions mergers people leaving going a lot of turnover and to me when it comes to a service I want to use I don't think he's a service as a big turnover mm-hmm I that's just me because I feel like if they're not keeping their employees happy they've got internal issues right right so like in the retail world going to Trader Joe's have one of the highest levels of employee happiness and retention mmm so like I'm fine spending my money at Trader Joe's right and but first of all they're the best snacks but like my sister is a union grocery store worker so this is a this is why it's a big deal like and you know in the union they're treated really well the customer services may be better but you know the truth is that Trader Joe's has a better overall experience so for like for me if I were recommending when I recommend companies to my friends and to Facebook groups like content creators I'm like look at how they treat their employees go check them out on social media you guys are social media nerds like go see what's a look at next door I mean our next door glass door glass door next door is a dumpster fire look at glass door do you like how they other people are talking about them oh it's it met it to me when I'm using a service especially service a cost especially the service that makes a difference in my business I want to make sure that they're treating their employees well so that's a defining factor to me and Paige Lee has a good reputation for that what and there's even more to that too like there's there's um you know if they are their employees pushing their product because they have to and because they're getting a paycheck and they're getting paid to do it cuz I already tell my employees employers straight up like I I told strapless when I was hired it was like I do not touch anything I don't believe it simple as that when I told him I said if it gets to any point that I don't like our product I'm not absolutely in love with it or it's not what I wanted to be I told them Alif no problem yeah but I told him I love everything that I've seen and I met with the team for a long period of time and I talked to all them and I knew them you know from prior experiences and things like that and I was like right now you got me because I will absolutely support your product 100% whether you pay me or not so you might as well pay me to do it too but the one thing I won't do ever is compromise my own name right because I've built everything that I've built on my name but because of my name right like I built my name based on trust and when I tell somebody hey check this product out or something it's not just because they you know they're not giving me a paycheck most of the time they're not right like most of the time it's not the company I work for it's because I have a reputation to uphold because if I give somebody back a bad recommendation they're not gonna they're not gonna take that recommendation from you next time yeah right so I keep my reputation above all else and and that's what I use to market products things like that yeah personal branding mmm-hmm matters I what Jason so edit so I was just think you know how how how someone like me who has a client who's a customer Oh Paige Lee can talk about because I have never recommended Paige Lee at the were like in at a WordPress meetup level where the person's like you know I have a semi popular dog blog and and you know all my whole fight my whole family goes to it and and that's it it's like how do you you couldn't say like oh but stew into rocks like just you know whatever activity or whatever just go host over here you can't do that but I think with with North sac I think you can do that sort of thing if that person is willing to kind of put in the effort to to figure out how to upload and manage and do all that stuff are you guys partnering with anybody on I'm like essentially like providing that type of service of getting sites on to that platform like you know because the fact that it's for developers by developers you know I always went and said like for instance when when I was using WP engine for a lot of my stuff I would say go put your sign WP engine so much easier to just put the stuff on there and get it up and running how do you get that same type of level for something like north stack like how do you go and just say we should put this your sights up on there so with north stack it's it's just kind of a different kind of audience right we don't want it to be unnecessarily a one-size-fits-all kind of thing the way it is developed is is it makes developers lives way easier right but it may make a more basic user that's maybe never used a command-line tool or something like that it would make it hard for them to use more agencies because of course we have a lot of the different account level type things that we have at page lis so such as you have an organization you can add multiple collaborators with different permissions and that sort of thing to it which is super handy by the way it's unbelievably Andy I love it I don't have to pretend to be my client I just go hi I'm Jason you just log in your own account because how are you gonna have you know two-factor or something like that right right that's that's another big thing is we we absolutely you know urge everybody to always use two-factor regardless mainly because it's just you know we don't want you to get compromised especially with hosting that you're paying a good chunk of change for and your your your site's probably pretty important to you so we have those we have those different features that are all built in so they're there they're great for agencies but we also want you know we want the the typical developer that is able to do that just wants to put it needs to get their client site publish the clients never gonna touch their site anyways so yeah you know put it on they're never gonna touch their hosting right they just want to make sure it works and if it works it's good and the client can figure it out anyways right if they really try it or one or somebody an hour freelance or something to do it but so we wanted to be able to make it so that there's like a command type of command-line tool and so instead of you know my typical thing is when I take on freelance clients deploying their code and getting pulling their code down everything is usually a mess right it's I usually keep their code on my own individual github repos and everything like that and then I push their github repos and my build process runs everything and it builds it then I just either say typically what I'm doing is I'm building a custom plugin for them so they my build process builds the plugin good tonight zip file and I go here you go have fun but the agencies and the individuals that are doing a full sight for somebody a lot of times that they want to be able to say all right this is this change is being made I need to push it it needs to build and it needs to upload directly to their site and needs to turn alive what North stack does is it handles all those things for you so it'll handle your build build time scripts it'll handle all of your deployments for you it'll do all of those different things so with North sac you click one button and integrate your and attach a github account to your are you attach a github repo to your to your your HAP and then you push to that github repo and boom all of a sudden it's just building your code runs all your build scripts and everything and throws it right on server does all this that's like a really good that's a really good solution for you right exactly cuz that's how people should be doing anyways right like we even tell our clients we're like no you need to keep all of your code in source control you need to have automatic builds you need to have automatic checking and unit tests and things like that running and then you need to be able to push them automate it so that you don't have to manually go in there and overwrite files and then all of a sudden you break a permission or something like that or you forget a file and your site fatals and then boom there goes your site there goes all your different users great we want to make sure that that stuff's good so what's the best way to do it automated deployments you know that's a really good segue for our tool or tip of the week Jeff so let's do it through all the tip of the week this week is brought to you by peep so peep so is a super light free social network plugin for WordPress that allows you to quickly and effortlessly as social networks or an online community right inside your WordPress site your community your way you can find out more at peep so calm PEP s/o calm so my tour tip of the week is a book somebody told me to buy this book everybody writes by Ann Handley quite a long time ago she's from marketing profs calm and I was like whatever but being a soft you know a self-taught soft skills person I was in an English major I mean I graduated for college and everything like that but you know I wasn't I wasn't specifically educated as a copywriter so I do it so whatever they like about this book is that they have bite-sized chapters that are very very short because it's really just a rule so it'll go by like Oh place the most important beginning of words at the beginning of sentence following a writing GPS you know it's maybe five five pages the more the think the easier it's not novel it's more of a guideline and when I get stuck you know I'm only in chapter 21 I keep it simple but not simplistic she gives really great examples of like how you can turn a sentence into something more powerful it's not just blah blah blah theoretical talking which is so annoying because like I've seen enough theoretical like let me see exactly what you mean so for example just so I can you know be specific in her chapter used familiar yet surprising analogies she said instead of saying the leaves of a giant pumpkin plant are huge she said try the pumpkin leaves or the size of trash can lids covering pumpkins the size of beer kegs you know instead of saying the payment is covered with tiny speed bumps that are 10 to 12 millimeters in diameter she says write it this way the payment is covered with tiny speed buffs that look like acorn caps under the thar comparison I look like she's she's like giving actual examples not just saying use analogies next chapter you know what I mean so it's so me it's more of a tool unless of a book book yeah but I'm really glad that I said okay this is been sitting on my shelf for a long long time I'm gonna start reading a couple chapters everyday so you know everybody knows I love Hemingway app calm just also a nap too but this is really helpful because it's good to be reminded even other things you know because reinforcement in the learning process is just as powerful not more powerful than the learning itself somebody said oh I didn't think that was a very good book well yeah if you're writing you should know this stuff already but it's good to be reminded of it because in tech in marketing we're constantly always learning and it's so easy to go backwards like even one of my friends from a journal background like journalism background which to do little side profile pictures and then wrap the text around like newspapers all that's not how we block we put wide landscape feature images that's how you do it now we just had a client who didn't like headers he wanted to write it and like an article I'm like this is an article articles have headers people scan we don't read yeah I spent 20 minutes talking to him about that and why it's really important to break up your text with editors and then you have virtual assistants to choose h floors because it looks better like okay so you're all over the map like on this stuff it's just supposed to be super easy it's good to be reminded like on some simple things that make your writing consumable because of course you can write you can like cook in your kitchen and people eat it or they don't but if you want a restaurant people we're going to have to pay for it so make your old fashions with a one ice cube a big one strain it after you muddle okay next Jeff do you have something you want me to jump in real quick and you can figure out for a minute uh you know I just I just did a quick little jump dig did find the find something there well my camera just freaked out that was weird anyways so yeah I actually got one quick thing which is the Lean Startup by Eric Ries is actually a book that I have on my Kindle right now Rhys Rhys one of the two it's a really cool book on how to create kind of a radical product that that hasn't ever been the market it hasn't been tested things like that a lot of times you know you create a product and if it's this huge revolutionary idea you know you may know the entire idea behind it but a lot of people probably don't or don't understand it right if you told somebody 10 years ago you need a smartphone ideally what maybe is not so much you know what I mean now my grandmother's got a smartphone so you know it it kind of brings you to tells you how to sell a product in a way that and create the product in a way that it makes sense and you're able to bring in a market quite easily without a whole lot of you know research and development and things just in case it does fail because a lot of times probably's gonna fail right I felt funny it's cool yep give me the book again just so it is called the the lean startup perfect hmm so I'm trying to come trying to figure out if I should between the two these two different apps I wanted to show on my iPhone but I'm gonna show the one that that's been at least has been talked about quite a bit in the Mac back in iOS communities you know there's this app called vignette and vignette is made by a podcaster that wanted to be able to go through all these different places that are out on the internet and look for people's contact photos so they scan through Facebook they scan through Twitter they scan through a whole bunch different sites actually uses Gravatar so look to see it so let's do all these places and then it will give you and I'm gonna I'm gonna cover up some names here but here's here's some faces and so what it does is it goes like these people you don't have photos for it just says a CD and yeah I hate that so you hit this button it says I'm going to update photo 40 contacts you hit save contacts and that goes boom boom boom boom boom boom boom boom boom and it just oh my god I need that yeah actually something to add for that yeah it looked cool so I'm gonna try it if you've tried it yep it's it's it's free to download to try out and it'll run through all your people and see if it can find photos for them or not and if it does find a photo then we'll allow you to set that photo on your phone and next time they call you it'll be the most up-to-date photo now you can run this over and over again which is really neat because you know a bunch of people started adding new new photos you can hit button and it will go and update all your photos and that's a first for me yeah I love having updated photos even on Debbie watercoolers website I mean I reference all the rabbit ours for everything on there and it just makes it so that when somebody updates their photo like Bridgette every other week Shep dates or photo I don't know rabbit exactly [Laughter] changed my hair a lot I actually put that on my bubble profile I changed my hair a lot I changed my beard a lot so yeah that's usually a good good footlong but uh every once in a while I just chop it all off and grow it again because I don't want it down to my knees but I enjoy growing it I guess I mean that's the thing is like that is that's a really fun way to do it too because when people call you and it shows up on the thing you know yeah just get a nice updated version of your photos from new phone who's this like do you even believe people who say that now if they lost all their contacts who's not using Google contacts or iCloud is that really yeah like people are really like well still do it I do lose your contacts I they say I'll do that later on their phone when they set up their phones and then they never actually go back I have contacts on my phone that I have no idea who they are like not a clue like and they'll have like little things written about them like I'll just be like Bob dude from the bar or something like you know and and you know six months a year I might know remember who they're talking about but now I know I'm afraid to delete them because I don't know who necessarily are this is really true I remember one day well I see I learned this from someone who before I started dating that you want to tell who's calling you oh absolutely also I'll give you a bonus tip Spokeo calm ESPO SP ok yo calm [Laughter] payments but I like this is pretty cool chase because it just started checking of 228 contacts their certainty with updates already oh and I'm pretty good about updating my contacts right but I but I do want to know who's calling me because I don't answer phone numbers I don't have to call some phone numbers I don't except for I did it was my surgeon but like I'm like she goes oh I promise I didn't like ruin your social security number I've been getting those like a lot lately that's a really great little cut keep it contacts like it matters like way to go all these people plus you know you know it's calling it like their photos are super important because you remember what they look like now instead of what they used to look like back when you met him first in high school or something like that or when you get added to a giant group text message oh my gosh and all you see is like two letters for their names if you even have that come on well folks shall we wrap it up yeah that was the crane up awesome yeah thank you very much for hanging out with us Jeff we really appreciate it I am looking forward to what you guys do over there a north stack because I'm I'm super excited to try it out and start playing around with it I these are those these are those types of things that as as a developer you need to be able to know the things that are out in the environment play around with stuff and then not all not all these web hosts are created equally and they're not all made for all the different types of sites that are out there so you got to kind of you got to know what's out there and play around with it so I would highly suggest checking out checking out north stack and if you haven't used page before so you can get one of your customers over there just so you can check it out and you know let's say thank you very much for hanging out with us I want to say thank you to desktop server for sponsoring us as well as pizza so thank you very much for for all that you know our website at de pouvoir quarter comm slash subscribe that's where you can figure out how you kiss ride subscribe to this content and all the other content that's happening out there we really appreciate it we have these two different shows around here so that's where you can figure out having subscribe talk to y'all later you have a good one bye

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